Community MetaSteam | December 2020 - Empire of Doom

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Mivey

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On a related stupid idea, if I learned a programming language, which one ?
I feel C is a good primer for the basics. Python is a good idea if you just want to something running quickly, it's my go-to scripting language. But I feel if you really want to understand the nitty gritty of how a program works, C is really good because it doesn't abstract too much while still allowing you to write some higher level things like functions and structures how you want them to.
 
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Swenhir

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Got hit by the crazy bug yesterday night, during an alcohol induced bout of insomnia. Thought I could do something with my life. Ha.
Installed Blender, watched the first tutos and fiddled with it. Like every past attempts I crashed on the complexity of the tool and some things I couldn’t do, like loop cutting at a specific location.
Then I watched a motherfucker create a 3d character from scratch. It was incredible, creepy (the skin and teeth part) and hope crushing.
I woke up at square one, in my usual mediocrity.

On a related stupid idea, if I learned a programming language, which one ?
I've been there, don't do this to yourself. What you experienced is getting hit with a wall of things you don't know, with tools that are not made to be intuitive. It's kind of like staring at a woodworking table and feeling like an ignoramus because you can't figure out how not to make your fingers part of a chair. Just don't.

Learning is also easier than it seems, and I have a deep fucking loathing for school education systems that shame people for not knowing something. Just take it easy. It is a very humane and possible thing to learn. You can do it, just one little step at a time, without crazy expectations.

Edit : I actually think C is a terrible language to start with, because of how it frontloads the difficulty of learning so many concepts at once. Python would be my recommendation too, though I haven't fiddled with it that much. I just know that as far as pedagogy goes, C is perhaps not the best because so many elements are dropped on you like cartoon pianos and by the end, you feel more crushed than in the position to play a moonlight sonata.
 

Mivey

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Edit : I actually think C is a terrible language to start with, because of how it frontloads the difficulty of learning so many concepts at once. Python would be my recommendation too, though I haven't fiddled with it that much. I just know that as far as pedagogy goes, C is perhaps not the best because so many elements are dropped on you like cartoon pianos and by the end, you feel more crushed than in the position to play a moonlight sonata.
I mean, this just totally depends on the course or book you are reading. I feel a gentle introduction to C will naturally start with just learning to write simple functions, without any dynamic elements like allocating memory. Then you go learn arrays, then to pointers, and so on.
It's not trivial, and you shouldn't move to the next thing before grasping what came before it. It was my first programming course at Uni and I really liked it, though it was certainly challenging at times, I feel that it ultimately helped me a lot.

I feel beginning with a low level language helped me ultimately appreciate and also understand higher level ones, like functional programming (which is by far my favourite way to program things). Of course, I understand why Python can give people a much nicer introduction to the basic concepts, but I'm not sure you'll really learn how to write complex, yet efficient programs with it.
 
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Alexandros

Every game should be turn based
Nov 4, 2018
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Not often one hears about earthquakes in Europe. Hopefully it doesn't become a thing.
I would imagine it is because their scale and force is relatively small. In Greece we've had several small earthquakes in 2020 and a pretty big one in October near the island of Samos which resulted in the death of two teenagers. A girl and a boy were walking past an old abandoned building when the earthquake hit and caused the collapse of a wall.
 

Li Kao

It’s a strange world. Let’s keep it that way.
Jan 28, 2019
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I've been there, don't do this to yourself. What you experienced is getting hit with a wall of things you don't know, with tools that are not made to be intuitive. It's kind of like staring at a woodworking table and feeling like an ignoramus because you can't figure out how not to make your fingers part of a chair. Just don't.

Learning is also easier than it seems, and I have a deep fucking loathing for school education systems that shame people for not knowing something. Just take it easy. It is a very humane and possible thing to learn. You can do it, just one little step at a time, without crazy expectations.

Edit : I actually think C is a terrible language to start with, because of how it frontloads the difficulty of learning so many concepts at once. Python would be my recommendation too, though I haven't fiddled with it that much. I just know that as far as pedagogy goes, C is perhaps not the best because so many elements are dropped on you like cartoon pianos and by the end, you feel more crushed than in the position to play a moonlight sonata.
Thank you for the kind reply. I'm aware of the unfairness of my post toward myself, it's just depression speaking. It would be cool to have a goal, a skill, a future. I'm increasingly aware that my time on earth is limited and I would really like to turn my life into something decent. Bonus point if I could tell the social worker that handle my monthly income to go fuck herself and her 'contract'.

Basically you have to agree to do several things to better your life, if you don't you run the risk of having your income nuked (it's a worst case scenario). I understand the logic, as a government you don't want to hand incomes like free candy, you want to incite someone to work on his life. Problem is, maybe my psy issues are too much, it doesn't work. I have very little to tell her on the 'what I will do' front, and in my specific case, it just feels like noise, annoyances just for the sake of it.

So it would be, maybe nothing short of a miracle, pretty cool to find something I'm decent at and can turn into a living.

But I don't find anything. Maybe I'm searching wrong, and surely this post would have a better place in another thread. Sorry.
 

Swenhir

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I mean, this just totally depends on the course or book you are reading. I feel a gentle introduction to C will naturally start with just learning to write simple functions, without any dynamic elements like allocating memory. Then you go learn arrays, then to pointers, and so on.
It's not trivial, and you shouldn't move to the next thing before grasping what came before it. It was my first programming course at Uni and I really liked it, though it was certainly challenging at times, I feel that it ultimately helped me a lot.

I feel beginning with a low level language helped me ultimately appreciate and also understand higher level ones, like functional programming (which is by far my favourite way to program things). Of course, I understand why Python can give people a much nicer introduction to the basic concepts, but I'm not sure you'll really learn how to write complex, yet efficient programs with it.
That's a good point, my introduction was pretty much my face smashed into the wall of it because education system gotta go fast. I still don't think that the logical reasoning of "you need to know how it works before moving on to abstracted things" is all that sound because by that token, there's a lot I wish I'd known about assembly and registers and things of that nature.

If you want to feel more empowered, quickly, while having I suspect little in the way of energy, I wouldn't recommend C but instead a language that gets you going faster. Doing is after all the most powerful learning tool, as is seeing something you make come together and with C, that takes a lot longer for something significant. To me, one of the greatest things is starting simple, and as you get going into your project, you learn more and go deeper, gently. You end up with the same skill set, and you have a lot less risk of your motivation dropping off a cliff, of the experience reinforcing the trauma of feeling like a failure as I suspect might be the case here.

The idea that you can't write complex and efficient things in Python is also... not very fair, nor completely true I believe, and I have to bite the bullet and say that it's a sort of "fighter pilot" mentality that I see across the programming and engineering community that is deeply unhelpful and fails to see the forest for the trees. Things don't have to be hard and super efficient for what you make to be good. I mean, Minecraft is the perfect example of why the language doesn't matter so much if you want to make something. Sure, it'd be more efficient in C and whatever, but would the creative flow and prototyping speed be the same? Infinity, one of the first games to have full-scale planets and large-scale rendering was written in C#. There's a cost to C and low-level languages that most people fail to mention and that's why I wouldn't recommend them for a beginner.
 
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dex3108

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Dec 20, 2018
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Well my city is considered as high risk when earthquakes are in question and we have zones related to seismic activity and I think that there are 10 zones and my city is in zone 9. So in general all buildings after that earthquake from 1969. were built to meet zone 9 requirements but you never know.
 

fantomena

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Dec 17, 2018
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My haul till now (I included the autumn sale as these sales were very close). Don't think I will buy more, but you never know. With the exception of Grindstone this month, Paper Mario Origami King and Pokemon Sword in november on Switch I haven't bought anything on other platforms/launchers/devices for some time.


Card Hog
Witcheye
Cube Escape Collection
I Am Dead
If Found
World of Horror
Assemble with Care
Subnautica: Below Zero
Ghostrunner
Wasteland 3
So Many Me
Downfall
Gray Dawn
Light Fall
Splasher
Sky Racket
Radical Rabbit Stew
Wilmot's Warehouse
Metamorphosis
Florence
Paradise Killer
Spiritfarer
John Wick Hex
Battletoads
Hypnospace Outlaw
Just Shapes and Beats
XIII - Classic
Gears 5
Missile Command: Recharged
Hexologic
Wolfenstein: Youngblood
Cosmic Express
The Sims 4
NFS: Most Wanted
Butcher
Old Man's Journey

As you can see, I gave up on my backlog long time ago. These days I just play whatever I want.
 
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Mivey

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That's a good point, my introduction was pretty much my face smashed into the wall of it because education system gotta go fast. I still don't think that the logical reasoning of "you need to know how it works before moving on to abstracted things" is all that sound because by that token, there's a lot I wish I'd known about assembly and registers and things of that nature.

If you want to feel more empowered, quickly, while having I suspect little in the way of energy, I wouldn't recommend C but instead a language that gets you going faster. Doing is after all the most powerful learning tool, as is seeing something you make come together and with C, that takes a lot longer for something significant. To me, one of the greatest things is starting simple, and as you get going into your project, you learn more and go deeper, gently. You end up with the same skill set, and you have a lot less risk of your motivation dropping off a cliff, of the experience reinforcing the trauma of feeling like a failure as I suspect might be the case here.

The idea that you can't write complex and efficient things in Python is also... not very fair, nor completely true I believe, and I have to bite the bullet and say that it's a sort of "fighter pilot" mentality that I see across the programming and engineering community that is deeply unhelpful and fails to see the forest for the trees. Things don't have to be hard and super efficient for what you make to be good. I mean, Minecraft is the perfect example of why the language doesn't matter so much if you want to make something. Sure, it'd be more efficient in C and whatever, but would the creative flow and prototyping speed be the same? Infinity, one of the first games to have full-scale planets and large-scale rendering was written in C#. There's a cost to C and low-level languages that most people fail to mention and that's why I wouldn't recommend them for a beginner.
Motivation is something that's hard to grasp, I can certainly see that that's something easier to maintain with a higher level language like Python.
When I recommend C over Python, it's not to say that you can't write efficient stuff in high level languages, but do so you will still need to understand quite well what it is that those high level languages are actually doing underneath all the stuff. Unity, for example, is a good example for this. For a long time devs had to basically write their own memory allocation to get decent and reliable real time performance from it, to avoid that very typical stuttery experience that used to define the engine, surely due to garbage collection artefacts. This shows that you can, with enough engineering effort, do next to anything on any system. But I feel to actually understand what goes on behind the scenes when your program, for example, tries to create some complex data structures, I think that's much easier on C. And I think Minecraft is actually an example that proves my argument, as they needed to rewrite the entire engine into C++ to get it running on more systems and implement more complex effects like RT on it. All of which could have been done in the original Java version, for sure, but getting it running fast and reliably, would have been a huge effort, to the point that just going to C/C++ proved a more sensible choice.

I don't want to come off as elitist, there are certainly different kinds of philosophies when it comes to how to teach programming, and surely there's no point in learning low-level stuff if you don't want to become a professional programmer, but merely learn your way around some effective scripting languages.
 

EdwardTivrusky

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Dec 8, 2018
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I've only bought:
Calico
People Playground
That game Li Kao mentioned with the french name.

I'm thinking of buying some DLC for CMANO and i've just shelled out far more than is decent for a Nintendo Switch Dock as they aren't available in the UK anymore and i want a dock downstairs where i have space to do some exercise with Ring Fit Adventure.
 

Dragon1893

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Man, I don't keep track of how many games I finish. Since I play a lot of rpgs and don't have a lot of time the list is usually short. This past of couple of months I actually finished a few because I've been focusing on shorter games. Damn, now I'm tempted to make a list...
 

EdwardTivrusky

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Dragon1893 Pick one of these threads for next year's games. I find it helps as i thought i hadn't completed many games but it's more than i remembered.


 
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Stone Ocean

Proud Degenerate
Apr 17, 2019
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Man, I don't keep track of how many games I finish. Since I play a lot of rpgs and don't have a lot of time the list is usually short. This past of couple of months I actually finished a few because I've been focusing on shorter games. Damn, now I'm tempted to make a list...
Same. I just finish the game and change the tag on my library so I have no idea how many games I finished this year.

But hey I beat Iconoclasts yesterday so it's at least 1. :wd_p:
 

Swenhir

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Motivation is something that's hard to grasp, I can certainly see that that's something easier to maintain with a higher level language like Python.
When I recommend C over Python, it's not to say that you can't write efficient stuff in high level languages, but do so you will still need to understand quite well what it is that those high level languages are actually doing underneath all the stuff. Unity, for example, is a good example for this. For a long time devs had to basically write their own memory allocation to get decent and reliable real time performance from it, to avoid that very typical stuttery experience that used to define the engine, surely due to garbage collection artefacts. This shows that you can, with enough engineering effort, do next to anything on any system. But I feel to actually understand what goes on behind the scenes when your program, for example, tries to create some complex data structures, I think that's much easier on C. And I think Minecraft is actually an example that proves my argument, as they needed to rewrite the entire engine into C++ to get it running on more systems and implement more complex effects like RT on it. All of which could have been done in the original Java version, for sure, but getting it running fast and reliably, would have been a huge effort, to the point that just going to C/C++ proved a more sensible choice.

I don't want to come off as elitist, there are certainly different kinds of philosophies when it comes to how to teach programming, and surely there's no point in learning low-level stuff if you don't want to become a professional programmer, but merely learn your way around some effective scripting languages.
On performance, absolutely. My point was that, maybe it's just me, but all this carries the implication that you need to know the entire monolith, that verticality of knowledge before you are allowed to take a single step. That seems like a motivation-killer for me, but I am also a person who realized programming wasn't for me because I liked creating, not engineering. Logic puzzles aren't as appealing as telling a story, so I can see my own bias here.

I also think Minecraft might not exist at all if it had been tried in another language because iteration and letting imagination loose was far more important than performance. There's something to be said for good enough against perfect. Is Minecraft an engineer's possible nightmare? Yeah, but it's also a fantastic game that exists at all.
 
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Mivey

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I also think Minecraft might not exist at all if it had been tried in another language because iteration and letting imagination loose was far more important than performance. There's something to be said for good enough against perfect. Is Minecraft an engineer's possible nightmare? Yeah, but it's also a fantastic game that exists at all.
Oh I agree wholeheartedly on this., but it's a separation of concerns here. Modern game engines allow a lot of people who don't care about programming to make great games. And this is good. To design and create great games is a completely different skillset from programming, and I hope tools get even better so that people with a very different background than Computer Science can more easily explore the medium.
 

Swenhir

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Oh I agree wholeheartedly on this., but it's a separation of concerns here. Modern game engines allow a lot of people who don't care about programming to make great games. And this is good. To design and create great games is a completely different skillset from programming, and I hope tools get even better so that people with a very different background than Computer Science can more easily explore the medium.
Absolutely, and to be fair, making games is an exercise in torture and masochism in that no great solution exists for everything and you need a monstrous experience (and love of the craft to support you) to even know what call to make, and the price of failure is always paid in torn hair and caffeine.

I would just loop back to the original intent of Li Kao, which was to get into learning programming to start building a skill set, to feel better and useful if I'm not misunderstanding him. I would argue that a language that enables him to do something quickly would be better for his morale than something really challenging and that pays off years down the line. Durante made a good point about C# in the other thread, which may be less objectionable than Python, but I don't know enough about either to really say.

Edit : I should also say that discussing this is really helping me remotivate myself. It's one thing to know doing is better than perfect, but it really helps talking about it!
 
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Wildebeet

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Then I watched a motherfucker create a 3d character from scratch. It was incredible, creepy (the skin and teeth part) and hope crushing.
I woke up at square one, in my usual mediocrity.
Yeah but you don't get to start out at mediocre, let alone skilled and incredible. You have to be terrible to get there.


I built a small house once. I was panicked and needed actual goals and was at a point where I had to make some real choices about how I wanted to live. I didn't want to work in offices anymore for other people and wanted to be as financially independent as possible so I could choose how to spend my life, so for me that meant no more rent or a mortgage. I thought I could read and learn and go out and build the house with what I had learned, but it was overwhelming and I made lots of ridiculous mistakes. It was hard going to work daily in a literal mudhole of failure.

I did this for a couple years and at some point stoppd work for a bit to build a tool shed. In part this was because I needed something that looked like quick progress and a tool shed seemed easy to do. But also my tools were gradually getting ruined in the weather because nothing was going to plan. I was so slow and incompetent. So I built a simple stick frame shed with a roof and it was dry and up off the ground and actually rather nice. It had windows and a door and a bookshelf and was large enough for most of my belongings. The walls were simple boards but it was like a tiny cabin.

Then I decided to live in the shed instead. I meant to store my tools properly, but it dawned on me that I had just built the house! It hadn't really occurred to me that I needed to start where my skill level actually was and not where I had planned to finish. Which was the bottom. You build the shed first. I wanted to go back in time and tell myself that actually going to the trouble of getting the experience is not optional, it's the tool that builds the damn house. Once I had that settled I was able to actually do something with the rest. The house was mixed results, mostly good. I don't live there now. But I did achieve the independence goal. I wish I still had my shed!
 

fokkusu

Burn baby burn🔥🎵
Dec 9, 2018
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Has been busy year with the work stuff and little toddler, but managed to finish some games this year. :coffee-blob:
Probably also due to the Covid situation that kept us home more than usual.
  • Hollow Knight
  • Titan Quest Atlantis DLC
  • Final Fantasy II
  • Final Fantasy III
  • Spyro Trilogy
  • Blaster Master Zero
  • Carmageddon 2
  • Carmageddon Max Damage
  • Trine 2
  • Crash Bandicoot Trilogy
  • Halo 1
  • Halo 2
  • Halo 3
  • Yakuza 0
  • Yakuza Kiwami
Let's hope 2021 is better year that this and let's all stay safe.

--

Holy moley the Yakuza Kiwami 2 looks damn good!
 

Li Kao

It’s a strange world. Let’s keep it that way.
Jan 28, 2019
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I have a step by step youtube video and can't fucking make a circle on my square in Blender.
Shrinkwrap is my new nemesis.

Don't worry about the OT, I will very soon run out of patience.
 
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fantomena

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Im just gonna say I hate Team17s regional pricing. Wanna get Neon Abyss and Crown Trick, tried Neon Abyss demo and Crown Trick via arr and loved them both, but base prices for them are too high. Same goes to Moving Out.
 
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Swenhir

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Li Kao There is a saying, that the difference between a master and a beginner is 10 000 hours of practise.
It's a fantastic saying because it shows how humane getting there is, that it has nothing to do with talent or any sort of elitism.

However, for a depressed person, it's a bit horrible because 10 000 hours sound like mount Everest. Source : am a depressed person :p.
 

Le Pertti

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It's a fantastic saying because it shows how humane getting there is, that it has nothing to do with talent or any sort of elitism.

However, for a depressed person, it's a bit horrible because 10 000 hours sound like mount Everest. Source : am a depressed person :p.
Yeah I agree, I am the same, I always think I can't possible manage something because I'm not good at it directly.
 
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Arsene

On a break
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Who here plays or has played Hunt: Showdown? Would you reccomend it?
I was considering getting it but I heard it was hard to really get into solo so I just bought Star Wars Battlefront 2 instead. My friend who used to play it loved it though, But he wouldnt play it alone.

Performance is apparently really hit or miss though.
 
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Wildebeet

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Finished the Frostpunk Last Autumn DLC and mostly enjoyed it. It's just as good as the main campaign in the base game and different enough that it's not too much of a rehash. I had somehow forgotten just how much trial and error there is with Frostpunk. The game throws huge curves at you sometimes that you couldn't have properly prepared for in any way, and no matter how many hours you spent getting there, you'll have to restart. You have to play through the game at least 5 times to see what the developers wanted you to do, and then get past that part, only to get chopped down by the next event. Fortunately the game and atmosphere is so enjoyable I can live with that.

I normally like my city builders to be extremely low stress, but somehow this super high pressure thing is fun too. If anybody else had fun with Frostpunk this DLC is an easy recommendation.
 
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dex3108

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Good news however, since a South Korean port operator has just got hold of a lost shipment of 500,000 GeForce RTX 3000 cards!
 
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PossiblyPudding

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Who here plays or has played Hunt: Showdown? Would you reccomend it?
Hunt is one of my favorite competitive shooters in a long time. The boss designs are creepy, one particularly so, and each provides a unique challenge if you manage to find them. And I say 'if' because while your primary goal is to collect the bounties from the bosses you'll also potentially be stopped or stalled by other players trying to do the same.

The nice thing about the competitive aspect is that none of the guns are truly underpowered. Sure they all do varying amounts of damage but often come with tradeoffs to compensate. So like in the crossbow's case, it's a weapon that will kill in one shot if you hit a player in the upper chest or head but the bolt flies slower obviously and the reload time is significant if you happen to miss.

Though Arsene is also correct that it's a very difficult game to play solo. You can queue solo into a duo or trio game, both of which will reward you with an underdog bonus of more xp, but unless you know the map well and how most of the equipment works you're going to have a tough time early on. However with enough practice it is possible to take down other teams while solo. The thing to learn is to rely heavily on traps and be patient.

And thanks for the mention lashman! :cat-heart-blob:
 

fantomena

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Seeing this indie games video from Nintendo makes me realize once again how much I like indie games more than aaa or aaaa games.


I mean, Im always gonna enjoy a good aaa and aaaa game, but I feel I spend more time and enjoy a good indie game more.
 
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This is their source: Encuentran en Corea 500.000 GPUs RTX 30 de NVIDIA que habían sido perdidas
Word of advice, NEVER EVER trust news coming from a spanish source if they're dated December 28th ;).
 
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Mor

Me llamo Willy y no hice la mili, pero vendo Chili
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This happens SO OFTEN that I'm not even surprised xDDDDDDD
This is their source: Encuentran en Corea 500.000 GPUs RTX 30 de NVIDIA que habían sido perdidas
Word of advice, NEVER EVER trust news coming from a spanish source if they're dated December 28th ;).
lol, INOCEEEENTE! :evilblob:

(But still I keep my comment because it's true, ports are chaotic as hell, I have witnessed myself :crying-face:)
 
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Ge0force

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[UWSL]I mean, Im always gonna enjoy a good aaa and aaaa game, but I feel I spend more time and enjoy a good indie game more.[/UWSL]
Same here. Looking at the list of games I finished this year, the majority is indie or AA.

There are still plenty of excellent AAA games out there, but lots of them are way too boring and repetitive for me to enjoy (Ubisofts and Rockstar's games for example). Indie games are often so much more fun and creative, and at least they try to do something new. I also prefer spending my money on indies and smaller publishers, instead of shitty companies like Deep Silver or 505 games.
 
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fantomena

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Same here. Looking at the list of games I finished this year, the majority is indie or AA.

There are still plenty of excellent AAA games out there, but lots of them are way too boring and repetitive for me to enjoy (Ubisofts and Rockstar's games for example). Indie games are often so much more fun and creative, and at least they try to do something new. I also prefer spending my money on indies and smaller publishers, instead of shitty companies like Deep Silver or 505 games.
Well 505 Games brought me Death Stranding so they are good in my book.
 
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