News Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous (Owlcat Games) - now on KS

prudis

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Wrath of the Righteous will migrate the RPG to a new part of the world of Golarion, the Worldwound, a demon-infested wasteland where a planar tear to the Abyss—which you’ll be able to visit—has opened. This unfortunate landscape is where you’ll be thrown into a war between mortals and demons. I imagine that a widespread demonic siege will ratchet up the stakes a bit. I’m definitely more worried about rampaging demons than whether or not to pay off a mafia of bards, as I frequently found myself doing in Kingmaker.

Wrath’s setting is actually based on the adventure module for the Pathfinder tabletop game of the same name, so “players of the original adventure path will encounter a lot of familiar faces and encounters, but [there] also will be new characters, twists, and stories,” said Mishulin.



With this change in setting comes a corresponding shift in visual style, moving Pathfinder towards a darker vibe. A meager, single piece of art has been released so far, but from it I can see that the emphasis on the angelic versus the demonic is heavy, and that the action is more dangerous: swords are bloodied and demons are having their faces disassembled.

Owlcat is also bringing at least two new base classes and the mythic progression system from the Pathfinder tabletop game. This system will let you pick from six different Mythics, including a mischievous trickster, an immortal lich, a celestial angel, and others. The mythic progression system grants quite a few powerful ability choices in the tabletop game, so you can expect to have an extra layer of customization on your main character.

Regarding new classes, we know for sure that the Witch—who operates precisely like you’d expect with spells, hexes, and a witch's familiar—will be making an appearance. Alongside them, the Oracle, who is a kind of belief-oriented holy spellcaster, is joining the cast to butt heads with the demonic hordes. There’s no concrete details on which other classes or prestige classes will appear, but there will be new ones beyond those that appeared in Kingmaker, and there’s also going to be a new race and new archetypes to play with.

The unique part of Kingmaker was certainly the kingdom management, and I’m hoping the system will add more meaningful choices in assembling settlements and reduce the number of high risk/low reward events. “In the Wrath of the Righteous we want to keep the best parts of the mix of strategic and RPG experiences," Mishulin told me. "Make it slightly deeper, with a better connection to the core experience and tailored to the story of the Wrath of the Righteous. And of course, we will be listening to our fans to make this system even more enjoyable.”
Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous announced

 

Taborcarn

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Nice! I enjoyed Kingmaker (played it for 103 hours)
As long as the tighten up the pacing and the endgame balance I'm in.
 
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Dandy

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When I saw this I was hoping it wouldn't have the kingdom management stuff again, to be honest. I backed Kingmaker on Kickstarter, but never finished it. I was enjoying it up until the kingdom management stuff kicked in, and then it sort of lost me. I just had this "am I doing this right?" feeling constantly, and it was off-putting. I keep meaning to re-visit it, but who knows if I'll ever get around to it.
 

Oldschool PC

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Kingmaker was too much of a slog for me to finish. It takes 126 hours on average to complete most of the content, and it's not as if the gameplay or writing are anything we haven't seen before. It's the same old tired combat and generic fantasy shit as every other D&D videogame.

I'm still happy the game was successful enough for Owlcats to become independent. We need all the CRPG developers we can get.
 
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ISee

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Kingmaker was too much of a slog for me to finish. It takes 126 hours on average to complete most of the content, and it's not as if the gameplay or writing are anything we haven't seen before. It's the same old tired combat and generic fantasy shit as every other D&D videogame.
Add kingdom management to the mix and you have exactly the reasons why I bought it.;)

It's clearly old school in many regards. But it was supposed to be.
 

Oldschool PC

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My username is literally Oldschool PC, but that doesn't mean I want new games to be derivative of older and much better games. I ask myself why I should play Pathfinder when I've already exhausted Baldurs Gate, Dark Sun, Neverwinter Nights, Icewind Dale. and Temple of Elemental Evil years ago. What experience is it offering me that those games haven't already given me for hundreds of hours? There's kingdom building I guess, but I didn't care for it.

Dusk, Divinity, and Prey are examples of games which adhere to oldschool design principles while still bringing new ideas to the table. Those are the kind of "oldschool" games that interest me nowadays, unlike Kingmaker which merely feels like a bigger version of Storm of Zehir.
 
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ISee

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Oh no. Neverwinter Nights 2 was awesome, but Kingmaker surpasses it easily in regards to complexity, the combat system, the rpg mechanics, the kingdom management. You are factually wrong. (<-- j/k)

Still, if you don't like it, you don't like it. fine with me.
Also, opinions 'n stuff ;)
 
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Oldschool PC

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Official campaign and Storm of Zehir: Yes
Mask of the Betrayer and various user mods: No

Gameplay is more or less the same, since Pathfinder is just a slightly updated D&D 3.5, Some of the changes are better and others are worse. Encounter design is terrible in both games. It's a shame that Kingmaker doesn't have modding support like NWN2, because I couldn't think of a game more ripe with potential.
 
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ISee

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damn i totally despised NWN2 back in the days compared to NWN1 , but few months ago replayed that (now with much more strenthened knowledge of english) and had a blast
(y)

I was so angry because the game was getting bad reviews at the time, especially in the german press. Everybody was comparing it to Oblivion and calling it "old" and "oblivion better designed". I think NWN2 passes the test of time way better than Oblivion.
 
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Durante

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I never understood why many people were quite down on NWN2 back then.
The OC wasn't much to write home about, but it was still far better than NWN1's. And the game's implementation of D&D gave you a ton of interesting character building options.
 
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Oldschool PC

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People hated Neverwinter Nights 2 because it was buggy and had a terrible camera, and while the singleplayer campaign was a noticeable improvement over the first game, it still wasn't very good overrall. The Electron Engine toolset was also not as easy to understand as Aurora leading to less mods.

Mask of the Betrayer however was incredible, and in many respects just as well written as Planescape: Torment. Obsidian's underrated masterpiece.
 
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Durante

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Yeah, that "terrible camera" complaint is another thing I really don't agree with. To be fair, I only played NWN2 a few months after release so maybe it was terrible then, but when I played it I actually liked it a lot. The 3 different types of highly configurable cameras worked out really well. I mostly used a semi-over-the-shoulder forward-looking perspective for exploration and a zoomed-out, unlocked pseudo-isometric view for battles, and a character-locked pseudo-isometric view for dungeon crawling.

Honestly, I missed that flexibility in several later games.
 
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rybrad

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I'm still working my way through Kingmaker with the turn based mod and I am at 135 hours with one chapter still to go. I am not sure if I can invest that kind of time into a new game. Hopefully they make some good improvements and win me over but I will still probably wait for the eventual enhanced or complete edition.
 
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Dandy

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I wanted to love NWN2(I adored the first one and played it for years), but I found it pretty disappointing. It was ugly, it was buggy, the campaign was mediocre, and the construction kit never really took off like NWN's did. Mask of the Betrayer was pretty great though.
 

Anoregon

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I'm just far enough into Kingmaker that if I want to get back to it I'll probably just start a new run. Though to be honest if I do ever feel a serious impetus to finish the game I'll probably turn on the "do kingdom shit for me so I can get back to the main gameplay" option.
 
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Taborcarn

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I'm exited for the game, but if you told me those screenshots were from Kingmaker I'd believe you.

Generated party of characters in front of a castle, generated party of characters in a cave, generated party of characters in the woods all in an isometric view where it's not that easy to see too much detail.
 
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rybrad

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I'm exited for the game, but if you told me those screenshots were from Kingmaker I'd believe you.

Generated party of characters in front of a castle, generated party of characters in a cave, generated party of characters in the woods all in an isometric view where it's not that easy to see too much detail.
I'm with you. I feel like I am just going to wait for this to be a full release instead of Kickstarting and hope a turn-based mod gets implemented again.
 

Anoregon

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I'm exited for the game, but if you told me those screenshots were from Kingmaker I'd believe you.

Generated party of characters in front of a castle, generated party of characters in a cave, generated party of characters in the woods all in an isometric view where it's not that easy to see too much detail.
It definitely looks like a Baldur's gate 1 -> Baldur's gate 2 style sequel, where the overall engine/graphics are the same or slightly upgraded while the focus is on stuff like new classes and gameplay mechanics. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
 

Dandy

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I backed it. Maybe I'll finish kingmaker before it releases.
 

Taborcarn

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I was able to snag an early bird pledge yesterday. $24 is less than I paid for the first game well after release so this was a no-brainer.
 

Dandy

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First stretch goal down(the Warpriest class), and the second(a companion that you can sell loot to) is very close. The one after that isn't revealed, but you can see some of the letters in the title and it looks like "Mounted Combat." Not sure if that would be great in this type of game, but we'll see.


Edit: 2nd stretch goal done! And yeah, next is mounted combat and the cavalier class.
 
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Anoregon

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I was able to snag an early bird pledge yesterday. $24 is less than I paid for the first game well after release so this was a no-brainer.
Yeah that was my reasoning. I'm sure I'd end up buying it eventually and for likely $25+.
 
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Dandy

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Another day, another stretch goal smashed. The next on the list is... Dismemberment!



Speculation for the next goal seems to be more Mythic Paths.

They also posted an update with info on the Lich Mythic Path.

By choosing lich as a Mythic Path, you elect to venture into unlife and to become the true master of necromancy. Liches are spellcasters independent of their primary class selection — their spellbook is filled with new unique spells, as well grim (and mostly necromantic) spells selected from the spell lists of other classes. It doesn’t matter what class you are as long as you choose lich — you will be able to cast those spells and will be as powerful (though not as versatile) as a necromancer wizard. But if you are a powerful spellcaster already, then instead your magical abilities will be augmented by your forbidden studies, extending your spellbook and both the level and number of spells you can cast.

...

Of course, the mechanics and gory visuals are not the only treat we have in store for those who dare to venture along this Mythic Path. But we won’t spoil the details of the story that liches will experience in Wrath of Righteous. Know only that there will be unique locations, quests, decisions and consequences, story paths, dialogue options, and even some “repurposed” NPCs available only to the lich.
I like that your Path choice is independent of your class. A Death Knight-style lich could be pretty fun. I also love that the Mythic Paths seem to be more than just "build" choices - they affect the story.
 
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Dandy

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Dismemberment is in. Next stretch goal is 2 more mythic paths: The Swarm-that-walks, and the gold dragon! This game is going to be crazy.




People are speculating that the next stretch goal is "New Races: One Out of Three" which I guess was a stretch goal for Kingmaker as well. They let the community vote on three races and the winner is added.
 
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Zexen

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I recently started Kingmaker, thanks to the turn-based mod I'm having a blast with it. I will surely back this one, with Avellone on board, it is a no brainer for me.

I don't really care for the physical goods besides the artbook, so maybe I will add one on the side.
 
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Dandy

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The Mythic Path stretch goal has been reached and the speculation for the next was correct - "New Race: One of Three" is next.



Catfolk:


Ratfolk:


Kitsune:


Speculation for the next goal:

 
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Panda Pedinte

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The Mythic Path stretch goal has been reached and the speculation for the next was correct - "New Race: One of Three" is next.



Catfolk:


Ratfolk:


Kitsune:


Speculation for the next goal:

The Ratfolk seems interesting but I guess the Kitsune will be the one to make into the game
 
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Oldschool PC

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Cool. I think I'll back it -- it's not like there is a huge amount of upcoming RtwP RPGs to choose from!
For the better I say. RTwP is a bastardized system that captures the worst qualities of both real-time and turn based combat.
 

Durante

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For the better I say. RTwP is a bastardized system that captures the worst qualities of both real-time and turn based combat.
I couldn't disagree more.

RTwP is the perfect system for CRPGs, and allows all the strategic positioning and control of turn-based combat while not getting needlessly bogged down in phases where such control is not required.

Even the recent poster-children for great TB combat, Divinity OS (1 and 2) are needlessly slow in many phases due to the rigidity imposed by the TB system.
 

Oldschool PC

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Define 'phases where control is not required.' In a go0d tactical game, every phase of combat should be important and require the full attention of the player. If that's not the case, it's a failure of good encounter design or systems design.
 

Durante

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That's the common response to my argument.

My counter-argument is that while this might be true for something like a linear tactics game, a good CRPG is not a linear tactics game. A good CRPG (i) allows for non-linear progression and exploration, (ii) does not scale the world state to player party state, and (iii) has a sufficiently high degree of customization and relative skill matchup variance to result in different party compositions having vastly different difficulties for distinct encounters.

Consequently, it's utterly impossible for a good CRPG to make every single encounter equally challenging for every single player, their respective party design, and the time in the game when they attempt it. As such, there will always be more challenging and less challenging encounters. This is not a problem but rather a direct result of a set of important features of the genre, and any attempt at making every single encounter challenging for every type of party and regardless of when in the game it is attempted makes for a worse CRPG.

And that's just looking at individual encounters as atomic units. However, they aren't that. In most great CRPGs I have played, encounters will have crucial phases requiring full dedication and deep tactical though, but they will also have phases where you basically just observe and react when something is going wrong. And often they might have "mop-up" phases that don't really matter.

So in conclusion, both inter-encounter and intra-encounter, the ability to adapt your control granularity -- provided by RTwP -- is incredibly useful.
 
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Oldschool PC

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1) I've played many turn based games that remained consistently challenging throughout on the highest difficulty. Sure it's impossible to make every encounter equally challenging, but you can easily have it so that every encounter requires at least some tactical consideration.

2) Many turn based games have already devised means to alleviate this problem
  • Automated turns
  • Faster animation settings
  • Resource management - Even if an encounter is relatively easier, it may still require finite resources to overcome (health, spells, durability, potions, scrolls, ect.). Minimizing the use of these resources on easier encounters is a challenge in itsellf
3) Even if you accept this to be a major problem, RTwP is an imperfect solution with many flaws of its own. It would be better for real-time crpgs to put all their focus on custom AI scripting and quick commands, removing the need for pausing altogether. Pillars of Eternity 2 had a very complex AI editor; If only you had the ability to switch AI conditionals on the fly it would have been the perfect system.
 
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Dandy

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The new race goal has already been hit, so Evolving Animal Companions is next.



Regarding the RTwP vs. TB debate, I'm actually fine either way. Given the choice between the two, I'd probably go with TB mainly because I like the control it gives vs the chaos of RTwP.

Oh, and here's the main theme song for the game: