News Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous (Owlcat Games) - now on KS

Durante

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2) Many turn based games have already devised means to alleviate this problem
  • Automated turns
  • Faster animation settings
  • Resource management - Even if an encounter is relatively easier, it may still require finite resources to overcome (health, spells, durability, potions, scrolls, ect.). Minimizing the use of these resources on easier encounters is a challenge in itsellf
I'd argue that the first two are just somewhat worse versions of something that RTwP gives you as an inherent feature, and with a much finer degree of control. (Don't get me wrong, I think they are absolutely necessary and very welcome to at least alleviate the TB bogging down issue; but they are just workarounds)
The third makes sense in some cases, but is hardly a panacea. If my party is vastly more powerful than some group of enemies, or e.g. has incredibly high fire resistance and is fighting some fire elementals, then I probably don't need to do anything special tactically to fight efficiently.

Also, and I guess that's more personal preference, I don't actually want every single battle in a CRPG to require deep tactical thought. I feel that, just like e.g. the balance between town gameplay, dialogue, non-combat quests, combat, exploration and dungeon crawling is important in these games and contributes to great pacing and variety, having both easier and harder battles also contributes to the overall pacing and "feel" of a CRPG.


3) Even if you accept this to be a major problem, RTwP is an imperfect solution with many flaws of its own. It would be better for real-time crpgs to put all their focus on custom AI scripting and quick commands, removing the need for pausing altogether. Pillars of Eternity 2 had a very complex AI editor; If only you had the ability to switch AI conditionals on the fly it would have been the perfect system.
What are those flaws and what's the problem with pausing?

I'm not trying to be contrarian here, I frequently see this sentiment expressed and I just don't get it. I really enjoy the loop of watching my battle plan play out, seeing something go wrong (or about to potentially go wrong), smashing the space bar and fixing it.
 
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Oldschool PC

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What are those flaws and what's the problem with pausing?
  • Micromanaging several complex units at once turns into a clusterfuck unless you pause every several seconds
  • Lack of good AI and pathfinding further exacerbate the micromanagement clusterfuck
  • Pausing every several seconds and managing six units breaks the flow of combat. Difficult encounters often play out like slideshows.
I've played every RTwP game there ever was, usually on the highest difficulty or with hardcore mods. I've learned to tolerate it, but turn based is superior.

I'm not trying to be contrarian here, I frequently see this sentiment expressed and I just don't get it. I really enjoy the loop of watching my battle plan play out, seeing something go wrong (or about to potentially go wrong), smashing the space bar and fixing it.
How do you feel about phase based or WEGO systems? It's a better version of what you're describing.

 
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rybrad

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I used the TB mod for Kingmaker and I felt it was the best setup for me. Mainly because I could toggle it off with a single button press so for easy trash packs I just switched it off so it didn't take forever. It would be nice to see some of these games implement a similar system instead of locked into a choice like PoE 2.
 
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Durante

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How do you feel about phase based or WEGO systems? It's a better version of what you're describing.
It's not.

One of the greatest things about RTwP is having control over the pausing granularity, for all the reasons I've laid out in my previous posts.
 

Oldschool PC

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Effectively it makes zero difference, because combat is still being governed by rounds and initiative. Baldurs Gate and Kingmaker are essentially turn based games happening in real time, except that you are given inherently less control due to not having individual decision making phases.,

Have you ever played Dungeons & Dragons tabletop by any chance?
 
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ShadowAUS

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I've been going back and forth on pledging but decided I will bite the bullet as I want to support new CRPG's as much as possible. For now I just got the basic digital tier but I kind of want the vinyl OST, decisions decisions. I enjoyed Kingmaker well enough despite it's err... "rough" pacing issues and many a bug - so I am certainly looking forward to WotR.
 
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Durante

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Effectively it makes zero difference, because combat is still being governed by rounds and initiative. Baldurs Gate and Kingmaker are essentially turn based games happening in real time, except that you are given inherently less control due to not having individual decision making phases.,
You are given inherently more control over the granularity of your decision-making, I don't see how that is arguable. Also, there is no fundamental reason why a RTwP system would need to be based on an underlying system of "rounds".

Have you ever played Dungeons & Dragons tabletop by any chance?
No, but I've played Shadowrun, DSA, Rolemaster, MERP and probably a few I'm forgetting.

FWIW, I've also never played Pathfinder: Kingmaker, but apparently it's a pretty shitty implementation of RTwP.
 

ISee

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Yeah, I don't agree with that Kingmaker opinion but I'm used to D&D table top combat so maybe I'm biased and kingmaker is targeting the D&D crowd.
About the random luck there. Yes, rolling dice can screw you over, but that's not different in other states based combat systems like for example in XCOM 2. It's part of the fun imo.

Because DSA was mentioned. Anybody played the Northland Triology on DOS? Random luck could really screw you up there.
 
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Durante

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Absolutely!

Sternenschweif (Star Trail) was a monumental achievement in the mid-90s.
 
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Line

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My opinion is only mine!
But it's not like there's an opinion to be had for Pathfinder Kingmaker about AI, pathfinding and disgusting micro management of your buffs. Where Pillars of Eternity evolved in the right way, and Deadfire fixed any issues you could have by having a massive customizable AI system, PK does absolutely nothing by being real time. What's the fucking point when everyone just autoattacks? It's the equivalent of spamming left click every turn.
And you can't turn RTWP in a turn based game, as both games prove. They're already slow as shit, and the pace just disintegrate in turn based mode, the time-to-kill is obviously not made for such a system.

No way in hell I'd back that game without true AI, and true combat that doesn't devolve in an RNG shitfest after you wasted several minutes preparing and painstakingly coordinating every movement and ability manually... and continuing to do so every second. Not having a queue for anything of any sort is an instant disqualification.
And XCOM is dreadful, any game that is nothing but a save scumming fiesta can fuck off into the sun.
 

ShadowAUS

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Things are slowing down now, but the Skald goal has been achieved. As usual, the community was able to figure out the next goal:



Of course, they've also figured out what the next one seem to be:


That's amazing? But also, kind of nuts.
The vinyl continues to call for me... but I'm going on vacation in a couple of weeks and a need all the money I can muster so I can live like a king for the duration. I might dip into my savings for it if they give us some more OST examples before the campaign is over as while I like the main theme they posted - it was also not that spectacular.
 

Dandy

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They've cleared the orchestra goal, and the next one is more reactivity.
Golarion is a world rich with traditions, religions, and paths, where a bold and cunning adventurer can find their destiny. When making Pathfinder: Kingmaker, we tried to enliven this world for you as much as possible, making NPCs and your companions react to your race, choices, and appearance. But there is no such thing as “too much reactivity” in a CRPG. So, we decided to go beyond what we did in Kingmaker and add even more.

If we hit the next stretch goal, the Commander’s troops won’t hesitate to voice their opinion to all and sundry. The more we write them, the more we feel their personalities bloom and come to life. We get a sense of who tends to praise, who tends to joke, and who is often ready to make a snide remark. Reading each other’s dialogues, we often think: “Oh, Seelah (or another companion) has something to say about this!”, so why bottle it up?

Any hero who steps into the melting pot of the Fifth Crusade will now attract more attention and interest. And suspicion, of course. What made a tiefling with demon heritage join the crusade against their kin? Why did a noble elf leave Kyonin? And you, stranger, you’re basically an animal… right?

But it’s not just your race that will raise questions among curious crusaders and civilians. Are you picturing yourself as a skilled swordsman, warpriest, or cavalier on a glorious mount? You can bet that there will be characters who have an opinion on your chosen “career path.”

The camp, where your companions can relax and truly be themselves, is the place where bonds of friendship or mutual dislike are forged. This is the place where you can get to know your counterparts better, and now they will converse more freely around you, expressing themselves to the fullest. Long story short: we’re offering you more party banter and more reactivity, so you can experience Golarion as a living,
The next to be revealed is speculated to be "+1 Archetype per Class."

Even better news, they've gotten 2.5k retweets on Twitter so that means that official mod support has been unlocked.
 
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rybrad

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Turn-based is officially in as an option: "It is official now: we will be introducing a turn-based combat option in Wrath of the Righteous!"

Great news they are taking inspiration from the mod as it was incredibly well done.
 

Zexen

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Turn-based is officially in as an option: "It is official now: we will be introducing a turn-based combat option in Wrath of the Righteous!"

Great news they are taking inspiration from the mod as it was incredibly well done.
Welp, that's it then, I'm a Kickstarter backer.

What could be even better is to make it togglable on the fly, just like the mod does.
 

Dandy

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Welp, that's it then, I'm a Kickstarter backer.

What could be even better is to make it togglable on the fly, just like the mod does.
Good news! That's how they are implementing it.

Once again, we want to stress out that our new CRPG is designed and balanced for RTWP, but with that, we're aiming to develop a turn-based mode to bring the game closer to a tabletop experience and give more control over combat for those of you, who prefer to play turn-by-turn. You will be able to control every action your characters take. More than that, we want to give you more tools to plan ahead and employ tactics based on your party's unique composition and abilities. You will be able to switch between modes on the fly, without the need to reload the location, which will give you the ability to fight any encounter in either mode at any moment.
 

Arkanius

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Dec 21, 2018
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I'm so happy they took the Turn Based Mod and are polishing around it.
The mod is fucking great and really takes care of my Pen and Paper D&D hitch.

It's the best of both worlds with it. Kingmaker took a huge jump in quality with it
 

rybrad

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Apr 22, 2019
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I'm so happy they took the Turn Based Mod and are polishing around it.
The mod is fucking great and really takes care of my Pen and Paper D&D hitch.

It's the best of both worlds with it. Kingmaker took a huge jump in quality with it
I couldn't agree more. I was going to deal with the RtwP and hope for a mod but them baking it right into the game means I can play at release now.
 
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Dandy

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The Doubled Reactivity goal was met last night, and this is the next to unlock:




Speculation for the one after that is "New Race - Oread." Never heard of em before, but I think they are basically Earth Genasi from D&D.
 

ShadowAUS

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Stretch goal achieved, and that means 23 new archetypes will be added to the game. Now they're working towards:


Woot, I love Oread's!



The funding has been steadier than a lot of other Kickstarters as of recent, the stretch goals are being knocked out at a good pace.
Speculation for the one after Oreads is "+2 Romance Options"
Yes please, my hopeless romantic arse would love that.
 

ShadowAUS

Swooping Is Bad
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Update 19# - All about QA and the lessons learned from Kingmaker.

Snippet said:
Dear Pathfinders,
The launch of Pathfinder: Kingmaker turned out to be an incredibly important day for us in the QA team, when feedback started flooding in from players... the good, the bad, and (unfortunately) the buggy. Despite all our efforts, we failed to achieve the level of quality in all our released content that our players deserved. Support from the player community allowed us to fix the majority of errors in a relatively short time, but the lesson we learned back then remains burned into our memories like the Worldwound on the surface of Golarion.

Today we’re going to tell you about what we’re doing in the new project to ensure that, this time around, we smooth out all the rough edges that Kingmaker had at launch.

When development started on Wrath of the Righteous, we decided that quality was our number one priority. We carefully calculated that to achieve our goal, we would need 23 manual testers working all day, every day from now until launch. That’s an eye-watering number of man hours to spend on testing, and that doesn’t even include management, coordination, and everything else that goes into QA. We decided that the smarter approach would be to increase the number of manual testers by a sensible amount, and alongside this, to focus on strengthening our ranks with people who could build us the extra help we needed. Yes, you heard that right! In the QA department at Owlcat Games, all our in-house tools are considered part of the team, and we named them after creatures from Golarion.
It's a good read and honestly should've been one of the first things they posted about considering how messy the launch of their first game was in regards to bugs and lack of polish.
 
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