Discussion The Israel/Palestine conflict

fantomena

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Dec 17, 2018
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Have something to say about the conflict? Say it here.

Sad fact(?): Seems like most of the people killed in Gaza are children.

 

moemoneyb1

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Mar 29, 2021
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There was someone on the Steam thread who posted a comment on this situation under a spoiler tag (Not gonna bother tagging them). There is one thing I want to make clear though is that the people in the neighboring Arab countries do care about what is going on in Palestine. To say that they don't is foolish. Countries like Egypt, Jordan, Syria etc. are ruled by authoritarians who do not give a damn about what their own people want or think. They'll give out condemnations but when it comes to taking stronger action they won't do jack shit. While I myself am not Arab (family came to America from Pakistan) I can still understand that for the vast majority of people in the Arab world their hearts are with the Palestinians.

For anybody interested they can watch this video to get an idea of why the rulers in the Arab/Muslim world are taking little action in regards to what is going on in Palestine.
 
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Amzin

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Dec 5, 2018
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I was just about to post this as a new thread, but to avoid cluttering anything, I hope it's OK if I post it here? I'll delete it and create a separate thread if this feels like too much.

I'm not going to apologize for responding to discussions of the VGA with more reasons the VGA sucks, although in retrospect I should have put a content warning about violence and inhumane suffering, so consider this that now. I'm not going to post any links or photos of any of the gruesome results of Israeli or Hamas strikes, but they are very easy to get to from some of these other links.

Also, if you don't know why the games industry should make political statements, well they do all the time (saying you aren't making a political statement is a political statement, and usually an oppressive one), but for the VGA specifically it's a huge platform with tons of viewers that dumps a bunch of money into chasing "prestige", and while I don't feel like it's representing the "face" of gaming to me, a lot of other people probably do view it as that. This short article by Mike Cook is a brief overview of the "why". https://cohost.org/mtrc/post/3755785-mostly-harmless

Now since this is Postmeta instead of the Steam thread, I'm going to post a bunch of links to a bunch of sources citing how fucking bad the Israeli government's actions over the past 2 months have been. It's incredibly disappointing that just posting actual verifiable facts in the other thread got met with misinformation and hostility. To get this out of the way: It's not, in reality, a "complicated situation" a lot of Israeli government and non-stancers like to say. Also note I keep emphasizing "Israeli government" because the Israeli people, even before the continued horrors over the subsequent weeks, were majority against this invasion. The Palestinian people also condemned Hamas, despite the fact Hamas (even more than Israel) cracks down on that kind of dissent. So again, when I say I'm against the Israeli actions in gaza, I am supporting literally both the Palestinian people and Israeli people and their wishes. Unfortunately, officials both in the conflict and in the "west", which heavily support Israeli military, are refusing to listen to their people. Notably Biden is taken a harder stance than fucking Ronald Reagan, which is bad, although less shocking knowing Biden as VP had personally talked to Netanyahu and basically said he'll support him no matter what.

If you want an easy summary of the situation, it's hard to beat John Oliver's segment, which they uploaded in full to their channel. Yea obviously a 30 minute voiced segment cannot cover over 70 years of global and local politics that lead to here but overall it's excellently researched coverage. Also since this video, things have gotten worse, but that is no fault of their team. If anything they leave out a little bit too much of the 70 years of violence by Israeli forces against Palestine, and how it hurts Israel too:
As of November 24th, the Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor created this infographic of the death in Gaza. It has been 2 weeks since then, and despite the temporary "cease fire" over the holidays, the Israeli forces have not let up. Israel has contested these numbers, but by Israel officials own estimation, it's REALLY bad. I'd be inclined to side with the 3rd party here but even if it's somewhere in between, this is absolutely inexcusable horror.
Twitter post which adds a breakdown: https://x.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1728674996070031513?s=20
Image directly because Twitter sucks: (this one won't embed for some reason)
Israel governments numbers from Nov 26th: https://x.com/aaolomi/status/1728942982416711821?s=20
Image:


The Israeli officials estimates went down for no clear reason a few days later to only 86% civilian casualties, but that seems exceedingly hard to take at face value and it's STILL INSANELY BAD.

In either case, the IDF has killed more children per week than Russia has killed Ukrainian children in their entire invasion. Children. 8,000 Palestinian children. The lack of official outcry on this by governments across the world is, at best, incredibly racist, and this is just an easily acknowledged, open air fact. It's hard to get worse than killing 8,000 children, but it somehow is, especially because the IDF has not stopped yet. Before anyone says anything, this is not an excuse for the atrocities of Russia, nor of Hamas - multiple forces can do inhumane acts and they don't cancel each other out. Right now Israel is the most well-armed, strongest position bully doing the atrocities.

Israeli forces are using their registry of all Palestinian people (because Gaza is largely an open-air prison, or concentration camp, depending which definition you chose to be more accurate) to target journalists, doctors, and other influential Palestinian voices. The actual villain plot from Winter Soldier:

Twitter: https://x.com/jasonhickel/status/1733166057064464444?s=20

More Israeli targeting of journalists:

Twitter: https://x.com/shailjapatel/status/1724381239606444387?s=20

Israeli snipers shooting civilians, in this case an 80 year old woman. A SNIPER, remember, not a shell, no collateral damage here:

Twitter: https://x.com/broseph_stalin/status/1733519129376604564?s=20

Now those are war crimes, but not necessarily genocide. The legal acknowledgement of genocide is extremely rare and it's super hard to get it, but much like many legal cases in the US, the actual verdict may not represent reality. If you'd rather term it as ethnic cleansing or cultural erasure, be my guest, Proving intent in ANY case is difficult, and Israel already handwaved away the leaked documentation of a plan to remove all Palestinians as not a real plan: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-palestinians-concept-paper-1.7015576

. Outside of intent, it's a textbook case of genocide, and given the persistent war crimes committed to target civilian infrastructure (hospitals, farms, government buildings, roads, homes), I personally can't believe there's no intent but if it's revealed this was some other thing like just casual love of murder, I'll admit to being wrong. Some discussion on whether or not it legally constitutes genocide, from people way more knowledgeable than me, is pretty condemning in that it only "technically" isn't genocide: Is What's Happening in Gaza a Genocide? Experts Weigh In

The Jewish voice for peace also pleads for an end to the "genocide" which is not a term they would throw around lightly, but given the lack of global readers reactions to events unfolding I'm not surprised they're trying to appeal to emotion: Jewish Voice for Peace calls on all people of conscience to stop imminent genocide - JVP
Another report about how, even if there is no "clear" intention (again, skeptical myself), the conflict is heading towards genocide regardless: Pedro Arrojo, UN Special Rapporteur: ‘The Gaza war is heading towards genocide’

There are also other crimes against humanity which are less debatable, since they've happened multiple times and the Israeli government has openly said them in video or social posts, like forcible transfer: forcible transfer

Here's an Israeli minister in March calling for the erasure of a Palestinian village: Israeli minister's call to 'erase' Palestinian village an incitement to violence, US says

Again, this is not a condemnation of the Israeli people - the fact Netanyahu and the current government didn't have enough support on their own suggests that Israeli's are kind of sick of their shit, as well they should be. It continues to put Israeli people in danger by propping up Hamas and the continued apartheid-esque (if not outright apartheid) occupation of Palestine given the terrorist group support it otherwise wouldn't have. The horrors of Israel-Palestine didn't start on October 7th, it's been going for over 70 years, largely driven by Israel because they're the ones with overwhelming military might from the US, UK, and others in the EU.

Twitter: https://x.com/missfalsteenia/status/1721641459877556371?s=20

Violence begets violence and Israeli officials refusal to stop fighting or to correct any wrongs of their past that continue to impact the lives of millions of Palestinians to this day is certainly violence, both physical and mental. The Jerusalem deputy mayor is not as big a figurehead as Netanyahu obviously, but it shows that in the Israeli government, the dehumanization of Palestine is entirely too present.


Twitter: https://x.com/DanFinn95/status/1733182178920398973?s=20

Israeli forces have engaged in other culture erasure as well, by clearing out and then demolishing (so, not even bothering with the excuse of "Hamas was in the tunnels" this time) one of the key municipal buildings in Gaza, which had tons of documentation which is now gone.


Twitter: https://x.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1731773645083594874?s=20

Israel social media has been memed on a lot by people that are paying attention, with good reason. I'm not going to bother with that here, you can look up the paid misinformation trolls and propaganda farms Israel is running that mirror what Russia, China, the GOP, etc. all are doing, it's the cause a lot of the lies are getting spread but it's too big a topic and too messy for me to dive into here. But as an example, Israeli forces lied about detaining some Hamas forces when actually they were detaining reporters and others that were in a shelter:

Twitter: https://x.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1732795860415660270?s=20

In a related topic, Biden was concerned that a ceasefire would allow outside journalists to come in to Gaza and would turn the public perception against Israel (which is not wrong since there's already a massive public outcry against the works of Israeli forces):

Twitter: https://x.com/SanaSaeed/status/1727200823976087871?s=20

Biden also lied / pushed Israeli propaganda about Hamas atrocities that didn't happen, which both is trying to excuse the atrocities that the IDF is committing (which again, two atrocities don't fucking cancel each other out or excuse each other in ANY WAY), and keep the narrative messy, but of course there was no big public statement from Biden or the White House about "oh these things we said happened didn't actually happen." This is just one of many examples:

Twitter: https://x.com/MarkAmesExiled/status/1725198015315484979?s=20

The effects of the destruction of Palestinian infrastructure and humanitarian supplies are felt every minute of every day there by the survivors, including another 1,000 children who have had amputations since October 7th as a result of IDF bombings. Hospitals were over capacity weeks ago, and IDF have destroyed multiple hospitals since then. They shoot people in the street and prevent rescue services from getting to them. This is all summed up in this depressing Tweet, but it's far, far, far too easy to find hundreds of Palestinians posting about what they've lost, who they've lost:

Twitter: https://x.com/alexnpress/status/1732767492269830581?s=20

This guy is a conversative talkshow guy so obviously, he's morally bankrupt, but this is exactly the kind of rhetoric that Israeli messaging is encouraging, and an example of the casual racism against Palestine that is manifesting everywhere:

(Please don't click on his Twitter and give him views, I'm including the link here for consistency) Twitter: https://x.com/marklevinshow/status/1732742737022038231?s=20

Outside of Israel itself and the US (which I follow more closely because I live here and our government is a nightmare right now, I don't love having to chose between a chronic criminal narcissist or a guy who is openly supporting ethnic cleansing because why the fuck is that a choice), there are a bunch of other clearly immoral stances being taken by various leaders. Germany cut funding to an anti-human-trafficing org in Egypt because they condemned the actions of the Israeli forces (rightly so)

Twitter: https://x.com/MadaMasr/status/1732854952140198399?s=20

On the slightly brighter side of things, protests by actual civilians, not their governments, have been massive and disruptive, which are important when people's governments stop listening to them and support murder. This is a London rally from a few hours ago:

Twitter: https://x.com/sahouraxo/status/1733501060063383991?s=20

Support for Palestine causing a headache for the NY stock exchange (honestly I would support protesting nearly anything if it inconvenienced the stock exchange but that's me):

Twitter: https://x.com/BTnewsroom/status/1733240546850709712?s=20

As far as "riots", there has been very little to no evidence posted by anyone who isn't law enforcement or a biased government official about riots, but I also don't agree that riots are fundamentally wrong. JFK wasn't wrong when he said "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable. " There have been countless peaceful protests over the past 20 years against war, against climate change, against corruption, against explotation, and it's hard to say they've impacted leadership in the slightest. At some point, you do have to remind people in power who gives them that power. I can replace my car or my stuff but you cannot replace the people dying because of policies and actions that are completely preventable, but leaders just choose to allow. I'd happly go through the process of replacing my car 100 times if those riots prevented an unjustified death, and we are talking about tens of thousands of unjustified deaths.

Twitter: https://x.com/moonlitsuguru/status/1723562261933920622?s=20

Because ultimately, as horrible as the Israeli military actions are the past 2 months, it's a drop in the bucket for the lives and damage caused by them over 75 years, but it's also not JUST about Palestine and Israel. A safe Palestine helps make Israel safer, but also the world taking justice seriously enough to empower that change is important if we're going to stop the exploitation of workers, or stop the other horrible abuses of war. There's another genocide / ethnic cleansing going on in the Congo, right now, that is almost universally ignored by the global north, which is almost inarguably directly because of that same selection of countries, as it spans from colonialism and cheap resource exploitation:

Much like how in the US, so many of us despaired when after the Columbine shooting, and more recently the Uvalde shooting, absolutely nothing, nothing was done to make our children safer, there is a clear line of despair to be drawn from the lack of official support from historically powerful and colonial countries interceding in a clearly inhumane assault on a people and country.

If you want more depressing coverage in your feeds, I strongly recommend Meghna Jayanth as she's involved in a lot of groups focused on the oppressed and ignored: https://twitter.com/betterthemask

In addition, listen to the Palestinians and Israelis that are the victims. There is still an absurd amount of not listening to the people affected in narratives today, be it women, minorities, or any other thing, but ultimately when it's so many people posting the same horrors of what is happening, you have to be willfully ignorant to deny them their voice.

None of the links I've posted here a one-offs. You can easily find tons of other coverage on every single thing I posted here. Sheer numbers isn't a validation of accuracy, or else bot armies would write reality, but these are clearly people, the horrifying photos and videos are clearly not AI, and the stories and numbers unfortunately add up. This was incredibly taxing to write as I've been trying to back off on this as it's incredibly depressing, needed to take a break, but it was incredibly disheartening that the only responses to the posts in the Steam thread were pushing back along either false stories or woeful ignorance. As I said, I have no qualms about coming out and standing against the atrocities committed in the name of "wiping Hamas from existence", I'm happy to go on record being against this horrorshow. I've donated to Medical Aid for Palestine, and encourage anyone who can to do so. There is also a constant need for esims for Palestians, since Israeli forces keep blacking out the internet and other communication tools. If not for esims and similar things, how much less we would know about what is happening there.


I know this last section will sound all drama-postery, but again I'm just really disappointed in this community. I thought this place, of all places on the gaming spectrum, would understand the importance of video games as a medium, and see through the propaganda of Israeli government and various western authorities (especially since we have openly critized them on other clearly wrong things they do, this should be not that much of a shock). I consider this place one of the last vestiges of the "old" internet that I'm a part of, and having people only respond to say Geoff was right to not support the Palestinian people is hard to equate with a place I want to be involved with. Maybe they really were just ignorant, casually unaware of the damage done by blindly supporting the oppressors here, but having no one but me, as far as I can see, stand up against that is... not the best feeling. I'm not going to go so far as to say I'm leaving, I'm done, you all are the real terrorists (that last bit a big /s, just to be clear). I do believe people can disagree, talk about something, and change their minds or perspectives, but I will openly acknowledge the double standard that you cannot change my perspective on the IDF killing 16,000-20,000 civilians in 2 months. I, and others in the protests, are not calling for revenge on Israel, they are calling for an end to this violence now and an end to the institutional violence as soon as possible. I do think Netanyahu and his buddies should be help accountable - just as I think the US presidents and leaders responsible for the myriad of war crimes committed by us should be held accountable. That's not revenge, that's justice, and it is sorely lacking right now.