What folks are saying is that there's magnitudes of difference between criticising the devs and harrassing them.
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- Thread starter Blizniak
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Its terrible. My nephew is autistic. I also resent this "gotcha". Like a lot. I'll take the high road on the rest of my response.
I haven't seen proof of it but I was unaware of it until just now.
Agreed. But anyone harassing people because of this is an asshole as well.
No it isn't. No one here is suddenly fine with Epic's tactics or exclusivity deals because of what happened with the Ooblets devs. Our opinion about this hasn't changed.
But many of us do feel that harassment isn't justified, no matter how shitty these devs have behaved. One doesn't exclude the other.
He's an asshole and deserves to be heavily criticized.
Speaking out against harassment is good. No idea why you think we are against it.
Or as Alextended said: We weren't the ones on Twitter attacking people or faking screenshots. You aren't talking to the people posting porn on discord servers.
The thing is: Using harassment to defend people who are making fun of people by calling them autistic with a terrible meme is horribly wrong. Yes they don't deserve death treats, but they are assholes who cry against the very thing that they did themselves. It's cynical.
Punch someone in the face, get punched back and cry about violence on the streets.
That's absolutely right, and not arguable in my opinion. Huge gap between being a dick/writing condescending statements, to trying to ruin people's lives.
That being said, we shouldn't brush aside what the devs did as well. They never apologized for the "reee" comment or calling actual concerns toxic/manbabies etc.
But by concentrating on this one side you all are giving them the opportunity to do and say terrible things and get away with it, because of the focus on the responses.
YES, harassment is bad. But they are "harassers" themselves.
They punched somebody in the face, got punched back and cried about violence on the street. YES, violence shouldn't be the answer and should not be tolerated. But the people starting it all, hitting first needs to get as much heat as the side responding with violence.
I don't want anyone concentrating on this one side. On the contrary: people should stop harassing these devs, but they shouldn't stop criticizing them for what they've said and done. It actually bothers me that most of the media only covers one side.
And I resent that some awful people get away with mocking autistic people (or any people with special needs).
1 or 2 days before the Article came out, I wrote how this whole thing would end. Someone points to some fuckwit and suddenly criticism isn't allowed anymore, I was right.
It's weird that now we're being forced to make a declaration about harassment before speaking when this kind of stuff has been going on long before the Ooblets situation. Are people going to pretend that this didn't happen when the Metro Exodus fiasco occurred? Or Outer Worlds? Or Shenmue?
There always has and always will be a contingent of people who take advantage of an opportunity to be total shit heels to others online. It's the oldest play in the internet book. Acting like this is some new thing and worse, trying to make us apologize for things we had no part in, is nothing more than a tactics shift by Epic and its defenders. You can and should have sympathy for the devs but don't let anyone try to guilt you into apologizing or starting each of your posts about EGS with some kind of statement about harassment being shitty. They know you know that already, they're just trying to back you into a wall.
Personally if someone ever attempts that with me I'll just ask them why they're ok with Sweeney being a troll online and making things worse for the devs they sign.
There always has and always will be a contingent of people who take advantage of an opportunity to be total shit heels to others online. It's the oldest play in the internet book. Acting like this is some new thing and worse, trying to make us apologize for things we had no part in, is nothing more than a tactics shift by Epic and its defenders. You can and should have sympathy for the devs but don't let anyone try to guilt you into apologizing or starting each of your posts about EGS with some kind of statement about harassment being shitty. They know you know that already, they're just trying to back you into a wall.
Personally if someone ever attempts that with me I'll just ask them why they're ok with Sweeney being a troll online and making things worse for the devs they sign.
I agree. But sadly some people will take justification for continuing the harassing. That's why I think it is important to define the boundaries of criticism.
These devs definitively deserve criticism for their words and actions. Using hurtful memes is inexcusable (especially if they claim their game to be wholesome).
What I mean is that folks need to chill.
Yeah well criticism is still allowed here. I even encourage you to do so if it makes you feel better. It often helps for me.
Criticism=/= Harassment. I have plenty of criticism for anyone who would mock my newphew or anyone who is autistic, I've got cricitism for Tim Sweeny, Epic and the actual working of the store and its features.
Not going to support harassment.
I don't feel guilty for the harassment that happened towards the Ooblet devs, nor do I feel the need to apologize or state on every page that I'm not for harming other people. Over and over again.
This is exactly what they wanted to happen, to make discussions about the EGS more difficult. The most I've interact with Devs going EGS exclusive is to tell them that I'm refunding my pre orders. Nothing added to it.
If you're all afraid about being lumped together with those assholes. Make a perma, first page thread, with a clear statement against harassment that we all can "sign" or "agree" upon. And than let's keep this on the EGS and not on general harassment and let's not use the very thing they are doing themselves as shields for them.
Or not, I'm very frustrated currently.
This is exactly what they wanted to happen, to make discussions about the EGS more difficult. The most I've interact with Devs going EGS exclusive is to tell them that I'm refunding my pre orders. Nothing added to it.
If you're all afraid about being lumped together with those assholes. Make a perma, first page thread, with a clear statement against harassment that we all can "sign" or "agree" upon. And than let's keep this on the EGS and not on general harassment and let's not use the very thing they are doing themselves as shields for them.
Or not, I'm very frustrated currently.
Death threats should be reported and investigated, in this day and age you never know what could happen, that's some serious stuff and should'nt be taken lightly.
On the Harassment topic i feel conflicted, it's undeniably wrong, but i don't go around searching and poking wasp nests with a short stick and then sit crying in the hospital because they destroyed me.
Epic response is, as always, a joke, they can't stay away from the pr bullshit depicting them as saviors of the world, just fuck off.
The game will sell well in the future, they have nothing to worry about, those idiots who sent death threats in the end only helped them, sadly.
On the Harassment topic i feel conflicted, it's undeniably wrong, but i don't go around searching and poking wasp nests with a short stick and then sit crying in the hospital because they destroyed me.
Epic response is, as always, a joke, they can't stay away from the pr bullshit depicting them as saviors of the world, just fuck off.
The game will sell well in the future, they have nothing to worry about, those idiots who sent death threats in the end only helped them, sadly.
I'd say that these developers deserved backlash but not to the level of threats or doxxing. I absolutely agree that the sort of backlash they received before the situation escalated was well deserved.
Thanks
Not if you are boycotting EGS. Than criticism, not matter how well formulated is autistic screatching.
Not my oppinion btw. It's the picture those pure, harassed devs were painting. Haha, what a funny joke according to the games media.
If one bad thing doesn't legitimize another one. Than one bad thing shouldn't be used to shield from another one.
I would say that not all games media has taken the side of the devs completely. RPS and a few other outlets had a more measured approach than Nathan Grayson at Kotaku and its comment section. (Whew that comment section).
I'm saying because they received threats and memes that its ok than one of their team reposted an anti autistic meme. That now people should feel bad and compelled to buy their game.
What does your statement matter that you don't support harassment? this is not a blue or green or sports-club decision. Not supporting harassment is the (err, should be) default position! I don't support sexual exploitation, transphobia, homophobia, harassment in all forms, animal abuse, misogyny, etc. etc.
there is no point in stating that.
Showing empathy to specific people who were targeted or something happened to them, that is what matters.
But stating that you don't support harassment? It's meaningless AND objectively false. Every person for themselves decides and feels what is harassment and what is not. someone feels harassed if you just tell them that the thing they did wasn't cool, others will still smile if you tell them they are an asshole. So even with constructive criticism, you could and would still harass people.
so, shifting gears here a bit, I was talking to a friend about the exclusivity deals in general. He fears that a pc gaming crash could happen if this continues. I doubt this seeing as people will continue to support the idea of putting their game on as many store fronts as possible but what do you guys think?
I don't see a crash perhaps but I do see some waves happening as smaller developers try to figure out what to do and Epic keeps moneyhatting.
doubt it ... even if AAA crashes and burns - we'll still have LOTS of indies releasing games like nothing happened
even that big crash back in the 80s was only really contained to the US ... Europe was absolutely fine and still selling consoles and games
No one should feel bad or apologize for something other people did. Nor should this community worry about its image when it has been successfully operating and encouraging open discussion without the need for moderation. I think this shows that people here are willing and capable to discuss issues without resorting to the type of behavior we often condemn.
Sensitive situations such as this can be resolved with the use of proper boundaries. Backlash is not a bad thing when it is justified and it doesn't cross over to harassment and threats. I don't think that is a controversial statement. I'm a lawyer so I'll give an example from my profession. In law school self defence was described as "the appropriate response to a hostile action". This means that if someone steals an apple from you and you break their hands, it is not an appropriate response to the damage caused (the loss of an item of small value).
For the Epic situation in particular, I consider appropriate responses to be boycotting, heavy criticism, sarcasm, memes, you name it, it's all fair game. For example, Sweeney is often snarky and annoying on Twitter so I consider similar responses towards him absolutely appropriate. The obvious line that people should not cross under any circumstances is anything that makes a person feel unsafe.
he's also literally a billionaire ... the concept of "punching up" also applies here
These are the two messages I have posted directed at devs:
It's frustrating that all of us will be painted with the same brush.
Also that it reframes the topic as "we are just lovely people trying to make a fun thing, but internet bad men won't let us uwu" and not "we are a business taking a kickback from a multi billionaire subsidiary of an even multi billionairey multinational, and are doing do to facilitate an attempt to corner a market".
Self publishing and taking an exclusivity moneyhat are both corporate financial decisions, made because the company thinks it can make more money that way.
If you're cheaping out on things like PR and community management, because you figure you can do that job yourself without paying an expert, there's a certain amount of shit-eating you should not only expect, but that you actually deserve.
If they'd gone with a publisher, almost all of the bad experiences they have had would have been if not avoided, heavily mitigated.
Because that's part of what a publisher earns their money doing.
Guys, it's not mutually exclusive to think that Ooblet devs are both dicks to their audience and didn't deserve being harassed (they're not mass murderers or serial rapists after all) at the same time. It doesn't have to be completely black or white issue. I haven't changed my opinion of them one bit, they suck and some of the answers from that Discord still anger me to this very moment (disrespecting people who were putting food on your table is super low no matter how you wanna slice it), but let's just agree that some lines shouldn't be crossed.
But could we keep that out of this thread and tell that to those who crossed the line, where ever they are? Read this fucking thread right now. Count the "harassed" and "death threats" mentions. It's ridiculous. You all should be ashamed who derailed this thread.
I get what you're saying, I really do. This situation is being exploited by many in order to discredit the whole anti-EGS movement and we may be playing right into their hands by arguing over something that none of us had any part in. We'll get back on track, it's just that this situation is still fresh and we have to find our footing. It's a learning experience.
The blogpost tone is really different now.
Those screenshots though, yikes.
The saddest thing is that this is probably going according to keikaku for Tim. Split and pit the community against each other to legitimize the project, using the devs as human shields. The oldest capitalist trick in the book.
yup ... that's pretty much a textbook example of how capitalism works
poor people fighting for scraps among themselves while billionaires couldn't give less of a fuck
I understand the sentiment, but I think it's important for us to reflect upon the situation. As it stands now "our side", so to speak, just planted mine and then happily stepped on it too, while Team Sweeney used the situation in their favour.
That's why I'm content with Valve not doing anything at all. There's no need to tribalize the issue even further.
Its really not though.
Yeah, those screenshots are horrible.
But they still conclude as their learning experience takeaway that theres nothing to apologise to anyone for so they won't, they don't give a shit about 'potential' customers because they don't have your money and they're fine with you just not buying their game, and that some of the things they actually said are 'bad PR' but they stand by them.
Ok?
Nothing was derailed just because you disagreed with what was posted.
I think we can both agree on one thing; the word "toxic" is fucking meaningless at this point. We need to find a better word.
This right here. I've read it and just shook my head. There was even the "and if you personally didn't harassed us, you still are one of them" in there. No you fuckwit. But you are still shitty, cry a river.
I'll gift you a "harassment", here you go, you can put it to your collection.
This right here is a root of the problem.
Nah mate, if people pay you, they're the ones who decide how you dance. If my boss wants me to wear a jacket instead of a shirt I do just that. It just so happens that self-publishing or crowdfunded devs have to build relationships with a huge group of bosses.
The blogpost as a whole is very much us vs them kind of thing and it won't cool down any hotheads, they're only going to boil even more. It's still the same condescending tone said in more diplomatic words. At this point, someone should stop using social networks.
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I mean, did you read the medium post put up by the dev? We can use another word other than harassment if you want. Hassle it is.
There's one.
Another.
We can do better and we should call out and comdemn this stuff, even when the dev's are not our favorite people. I'm not a fan of them personally or of their game.
These are just two people and I don't care if they're painting me with a brush. We'll never interact.
Oheao!! Welcome aboard! Hug
yes, but, and I dislike this word through its overuse and abuse in certain other circles, it is highly disingenuous to portray all criticism as though it is on the level of "kys [slur]", and to then take a few extreme examples as indicative of the general negative feedback they received, because those not only do not deserve any form of response, what actual response is there to make to that kind of statement?
Randy is a millionare. He doesnt give a shit, neither Tim. They figured out that being controversial pays in spades.Just found this.
The response is sometimes it isn't super important for you to run over to the game's reddit/discord or forums to join in with pitchforks, even if you have reasonable criticism. Yes, SRossi going to put me on blast for this but so be it. A reasonable request can be made unreasonably. Yes the dev's poked the bear but they thought it was a cute little cub and not a giant grizzly. A bad move from people who don't seem to like their audience, yes.
I mean, did you read the medium post put up by the dev? We can use another word other than harassment if you want. Hassle it is.
There's one.
Another.
We can do better and we should call out and comdemn this stuff, even when the dev's are not our favorite people. I'm not a fan of them personally or of their game.
These are just two people and I don't care if they're painting me with a brush. We'll never interact.
Or else, what exactly? I'm sorry, but I'm starting to be irked here. Nobody here had any part in any of it. None of us wished for them to be harassed. So why do you think we are required to conform to a song and dance of showing our card of "not-being-a shitty-person"-ness in order to open our mouths regarding EGS, all of a sudden? Why does criticizing people for their actions in logical and non-emotional ways suddenly equates to being a harasser?
I'm sorry, while I have all the empathy in the world for people suffering, I will not silence myself or others out of a fallacious guilt by very-remote-association.
I never said anyone should. Also this was for a specific poster that was quoted.
Nobody is silencing anybody. We're just suggesting to mind what you say, lest someone use your protest for nasty purposes.
All good then. Criticism could and should be voiced. With civility, with empathy and decency but also firmly and clearly articulated.
I am afraid that giving into the "now is not the time" argument only results in it being exploited and abused in perpetuity as soon it proves effective. If Epic and the devs signing with them has shown us anything, it's that they are unashamed to use people's kindness against them.
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