|OT| Epic vs Apple/Google - Battle of the Tims

warp_

warp_

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Since this conversation is already happening in 2-3 threads already why not make a thread just to contain it? Hopefully this is not frowned upon but I figured it would make things easier to follow.

:face-with-rolling-eyes::face-with-rolling-eyes::face-with-rolling-eyes::face-with-rolling-eyes::face-with-rolling-eyes::face-with-rolling-eyes::face-with-rolling-eyes:

:face-with-rolling-eyes::face-with-rolling-eyes::face-with-rolling-eyes::face-with-rolling-eyes::face-with-rolling-eyes::face-with-rolling-eyes::face-with-rolling-eyes:

Quick bullet points of the cases from Epic's side (stolen from Reddit)
  • Both suits are being done with the help of 2 of the largest law firms in the US. Epic is clearly prepared to spend a lot on this.
  • Both start with a short story about how the companies started up as small underdogs with noble intents (Google's motto "don't be evil", and Apple's crusade against IBM's computer monopoly with the 1984 ad). Then goes on to mention how both companies are now leaders in their industries.
  • In the Apple case Epic makes a clear case: Apple only allows users to purchase apps from their App Store, and make in app purchases with Apple's payment processor. This harms the user, but also the developer. Apple takes a 30% "tax" on both App Store purchases and any in app purchases. Apple does not allow developers to distribute apps via any other platform than the App Store or use any other payment processor for in app purchases than Apple's. In this way Epic claims that Apple maintains a monopoly on the iOS device family.
  • They compare that to how Mac's allow users and devs to distribute and download freely. Epic claims that the average fee for other payment platforms is 3% (1/10th of Apple's "tax").
  • Back to Google. Epic claims that Google has been working for years to make Android more and more of a closed ecosystem. In their words: "Google has eliminated competition in the distribution of Android apps using myriad contractual and technical barriers".
  • It seems that Epic is a lot more vague with Google's case than with Apple's (some details come later on). Its a lot shorter on details of any kind. Note: Fortnite was initially not released on Android via the Play Store, Epic moved it there later. On Android you can actually download apps from other stores or directly from a website.
  • In both cases, Epic calls Fortnite a "global cultural phenomenon" and mentions its 350 million downloads.
  • Epic mentions the anti-trust suits that opened the Windows PC platform up for other developers. Epic compares that to how Android and iOS phones are now so essential to people's every day life that they, like the Windows PC, also must allow competition on their platforms.
  • Epic recalls how it tried to strike a deal with OnePlus to have the Epic Store preinstalled on their phones but Google blocked it. They then mention that Google themselves negotiates with all who wants to use Android to have their phones come preinstalled with Play Store and other Google apps like YouTube and Gmail.
  • Apparently if you want to advertise your app via a Google product like YouTube, you must then only sell that app via the Play Store.
  • LG told Epic that their contract with Google did not allow them to distribute apps via other platforms than Play Store.
  • If you try to install an app via a website download you will then have to change your phone settings and click through warnings. These apps also cannot update in the background.
  • Epic does not seek any payment for damages or similar in any of the cases. Epic claims to only be interested in an order to both companies to end their monopolistic practices
Apple Lawsuit

Google Lawsuit
 
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beep boop

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warp_ said:
Apparently if you want to advertise your app via a Google product like YouTube, you must then only sell that app via the Play Store.
Click to expand...
That seems like an abuse of market dominance. Whether it’s relevant to the larger case, I don’t know. It at least informs intent and posture with regard to Google’s policies around the Play Store.
 
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Trisolarian

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"And he said to them, 'Fornits, know that as you walk through the valley devoid of matches, know that you* are loved, and that the father has not abandoned you'

*your currency is loved

Nabs for the photo.
 
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Swenhir

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The article someone linked earlier really did have a good point. The ones getting crapped on the most in all this are the actual fortnite players.

It's not enough that they are behind Epic's financial stability, Epic clearly holds no amount of gratefulness toward them. Instead, they are being held hostage, asked to campaign on Epic's behalf on social media, because that company wants more of their money. They can't keep on receiving updates for a game they spent money on because the company is openly using them as leverage, many of them teenagers and children, to win a legal battle for more money.

I can't quite put it into words but it's really, really sleazy.
 
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warp_

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if epic were to win their suits, it would also benefit their direct competition. so that part is true. steam could put purchases into their store again in theory, ms could release xcloud as an app for ios, geforce now could release on ios, stuff like that.

doesn't mean they are doing this for any noble purpose of course.
 
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warp_

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for some wider context, apple is already the target of antitrust investigations in the eu for these practices, which is almost certainly part of why epic is pushing their lawsuit now.

variety.com

Apple App Store, Apple Pay Targeted in EU Antitrust Probes, Spotify Cheers Moves

The European Union ratcheted up its scrutiny of Apple, launching formal antitrust investigations into the App Store and Apple Pay.
variety.com variety.com

spotify has also filed complaints over the forced use of apple pay and anti-competitive practices that target apps where apple has a competing app or service. plus, in the us apple is a target of a class action lawsuit for monopolizing the purchase of apps on ios devices with the app store.

basically this was the perfect time for epic to strike and they were ready to do so.
 
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C-Dub

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Jim Sterling on the money, as per. Whoever wins, consumers don't win anything.

The ideal situation for me is Epic wins this court case, forces Apple and Google to open up, then someone else who isn't Epic swoops in with a third party store and eats Epic's lunch.
 
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ISee

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warp_ said:
if epic were to win their suits, it would also benefit their direct competition. so that part is true. steam could put purchases into their store again in theory, ms could release xcloud as an app for ios, geforce now could release on ios, stuff like that.

doesn't mean they are doing this for any noble purpose of course.
Click to expand...
All true. Could even mean we'd get third party stores on consoles, eventually.
I'd just like to add one thing:

Tim is relying on kids to do his dirty job of putting public pressure on Apple.
 
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Eferis

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I was honestly tempted to stop reading at "defied". The wording they use to try and paint them as some sort of common-folk rebel alliance against the big bad corporation is upsetting and unnerving. I honestly stopped giving half a crap about what Epic does in the gaming industry, they could buy every single game as their exclusive and I'd simply stop buying games and not lose a single night of sleep over it but, apparently, the big 2020 trend for rich-beyond-human-imagination corporations is co-opting social causes, serious issues, historical events and counterculture vocabulary for their own profit. We have burger companies co-opting BLM, Ubisoft changing the words of a poem about the Holocaust to promote their digital toy and now Epic using dystopic imaginary (because they're not simply parodying an old Apple commercial) to try and recruit kids to do the dirty work for them... and I'm pretty sure I missed a few other examples in between. At what point do we, as a society, draw the line and say "fuck you, company, just sell me your products and shut the fuck up"? Well... not this time apparently since all I'm seeing are discussions about the legitimacy of Epic's request and not a single (of very few) discussion about how worrying it is to allow company to send this kind of messages.
 
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Swenhir

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So there was an extensive post on r/videos making the point that this was more about the US/China trade war than anything else.

That view disquiets me because :
  • It forgets that at the end of the day, PCs are open, Android is open-ish and the sky hasn't fallen.
  • Walled gardens are a flat-out disaster for everyone but Apple.
  • Much as I loathe to admit it, it is true that this might be about Tencent trying to get WeChat and other apps to remain in the iOS ecosystem, but at the same time nuking the openness of an entire device for the sake of two country's spat doesn't exactly strike me as right.
 
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ISee

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WeChat could end up being removed from the U.S. store, but would stay in other regions.
I'm not even sure the political regime in China cares if WeChat is available in the U.S.
It's a tool designed to control their citizens and life in China without it is difficult, even impossible. No WeChat on Chinese iPhones would force people to drop the apple brand asap. And that's not something Winnie Pooh is afraid of.

The china/us trade war conspiracy doesn't make sense. I dislike Epic, but let's be rational here. This is Tim suffering under the pressure of his own ego. While feeling like being able to bullshit everybody.
 
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Swenhir

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ISee said:
WeChat could end up being removed from the U.S. store, but would stay in other regions.
I'm not even sure the political regime in China cares if WeChat is available in the U.S.
It's a tool designed to control their citizens and life in China without it is difficult, even impossible. No WeChat on Chinese iPhones would force people to drop the apple brand asap. And that's not something Winnie Pooh is afraid of.

The china/us trade war conspiracy doesn't make sense. I dislike Epic, but let's be rational here. This is Tim suffering under the pressure of his own ego. While feeling like being able to bullshit everybody.
Click to expand...
I'm honestly not sure, but I think his ego is involved regardless. That much is pretty certain :p.
 
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Alexandros

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Phoenix RISING said:
Google, if you didn't catch it.


And yes, I do think Epic is being used as a proxy for China to create disruption in the US digital marketplace.
Click to expand...
Yeah I heard that already. I will always support any move towards open platforms so best of luck to our pal Tim! The funniest scenario would be that Epic wins, walled gardens get blown up, Tim pushes EGS everywhere and people still don't buy from it [UWSL]:evilblob:[/UWSL]
 
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Yaska

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Except that Tencent already bypasses Apple's iAPP and ecosystem and offers its own appstore for iOS in the form of Weixin miniApps.
 
Swenhir

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IGN says Epic is “Weaponizing Fortnite Fans”. But the armament being offered is simply an idea
Click to expand...
:toucan:

He's some next level of politician-sleazy, failing to address the fact that he's asking kids to troll and abuse on twitter for 0% v-bucks that they'll pay the same price.
 
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lashman

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Swenhir said:
I need a toucan smiley. He's some next level of politician-sleazy, failing to address the fact that he's asking kids to troll and abuse on twitter for 0% v-bucks that they'll pay the sme price.
Click to expand...
there is one:

:toucan:
 
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crimsonheadGCN

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For Google, the only outcome I see for this is that Google won't be allowed to pressure phone makers into not making deals to pre-install other companies app stores.

For Apple, I think we'll see them adopt something similar to Valve's revenue based reduction in the store cut. I think something like this will be adopted by most digital storefronts in the next few years.
 
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