That's not what Epic is after. They want their own store on iOS without paying Apple anything. I don't see that happening.
|OT| Epic vs Apple/Google - Battle of the Tims
- Thread starter warp_
- Start date
OP
- Thread Starter
- #52
in the console comparison his argument would be more like ea, ubi, activision, gog/cdpr, devolver, etc should be able to operate their own stores on consoles and compete with the ps/ms/nintendo shops in pricing.
basically his argument is that consoles/phones should allow "just another launcher"
and he hopes his becomes the dominant "just another launcher" probably by buying exclusives up on console/phone ecosystems
In one specific way this already sorta exists on consoles with ea access. you pay ea separately for access to games but you download them (at least on x1) from the microsoft store on the console and i assume there's some kind of cut to ms from ea as well.
tim is arguing that ea should have the ability to host all the games themselves, provide service and support to customers themselves, and operate ea access as just an app on the console without needing to give ms that cut if they want.
however epic's reasoning for this argument doesn't really apply to consoles as there are more different options and varied terms of service between the three big console makers (not to mention pcs existing) than there is in the mobile space.
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I meant what I said. Of course if Sony could put their store on Xbox hardware, third party companies could do the same as well. That's a given.in the console comparison his argument would be more like ea, ubi, activision, gog/cdpr, devolver, etc should be able to operate their own stores on consoles and compete with the ps/ms/nintendo shops in pricing.
basically his argument is that consoles/phones should allow "just another launcher"
and he hopes his becomes the dominant "just another launcher" probably by buying exclusives up on console/phone ecosystems
In one specific way this already sorta exists on consoles with ea access. you pay ea separately for access to games but you download them (at least on x1) from the microsoft store on the console and i assume there's some kind of cut to ms from ea as well.
tim is arguing that ea should have the ability to host all the games themselves, provide service and support to customers themselves, and operate ea access as just an app on the console without needing to give ms that cut if they want.
however epic's reasoning for this argument doesn't really apply to consoles as there are more different options and varied terms of service between the three big console makers (not to mention pcs existing) than there is in the mobile space.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #54
so why is it bad?
though like i said above the situations are comparable as the console companies aren't currently blocking competing services on their devices like apple is and are offering enough differences between their tos and services that the epic argument doesn't work as well in the case of consoles.
though like i said above the situations are comparable as the console companies aren't currently blocking competing services on their devices like apple is and are offering enough differences between their tos and services that the epic argument doesn't work as well in the case of consoles.
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Imagine if the only store available on Windows 10 was the Windows Store. You would not be able to install anything without the Windows Store.
Imagine if Valve would not be allowed to list the Steam software on the Windows Store, so that Steam would not be able to run on Windows 10 at all.
Imagine if Valve would not be allowed to list the Steam software on the Windows Store, so that Steam would not be able to run on Windows 10 at all.
I'm starting to question if that is what Tim Sweeney really wants. He knows through EGS that trying to overthrow an established market leader is really hard even on an open platform, plus his previous stunt with removing Fortnite from the Play Store was a complete failure. I would hazard a guess that Tim Sweeney would be ecstatic with a ruling that let him distribute the game through the App store without paying anything to Apple.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #57
or even if windows just made it very difficult to get other stores on there or implied it would be dangerous to sideload them to discourage the practice (see: google) or made side deals with oems to discourage the bundling of other stores (again, google) which was basically the case against ms in their antitrust case.
That's essentially what Microsoft TRIED to do with Windows 10 S. Safe to say, it didn't end up well as almost no one remembers Windows 10 S-operating system anymore. For those who don't remember, Windows 10 S was special version that was for lower-spec devices and only allowed software from Windows Store and disabled quite a lot of stuff.
The question isn't if open systems and platforms are good. It is safe to assume that most people on this forum understand the value of open platforms.
The problem is that Epic isn't motivated by an altruistic endeavor. It's greed, selfishness and opportunism shrouded in kindness. They are hypocritical, right-out mendacious. Their "good fight" disguise is nauseating, manipulative and makes it hard for me to root for them. Even impossible.
And I'm no friend of Apple or Google either. I dislike them both too.
The problem is that Epic isn't motivated by an altruistic endeavor. It's greed, selfishness and opportunism shrouded in kindness. They are hypocritical, right-out mendacious. Their "good fight" disguise is nauseating, manipulative and makes it hard for me to root for them. Even impossible.
And I'm no friend of Apple or Google either. I dislike them both too.
Gamers Riot in Streets to Ensure Epic Gets Better Revenue Sharing Deal With Apple
SEATTLE — In response to the escalating tension between Apple and Epic, masses of angry gamers have taken to the streets to show support for…
thehardtimes.net
Sounds like Sweeney's dream scenario, while in reality I imagine this conflict will soon lose whatever attention it has like all Epic news (and all lengthy legal battles, to be fair)
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Although, either the game returns or it will eventually be unplayable.
OP
I don't care either way how this "fight" is going to turn out, but tbh I can't help feeling some amount of Schadenfreude.
They deliberately broke Terms of Service, so they got the boot. Wonder how the courts will see this.
Sucks for the devs who are getting caught in the crossfire though.
I mean why would Apple support Epic in anyway if Epic filed a lawsuit against them? I'm surprised they are waiting until the 28th. I would have booted them off immediately.
Just imagine how much fucks Apple gives about Sweeney and the Unreal Engine.
Just imagine how much fucks Apple gives about Sweeney and the Unreal Engine.
That escalated quickly.
I mean apple makes so much money, that Epics revenue must feel like nothing.
On the one hand, this is insane.It looks like Apple is already too big to be attacked, even by Epic.
On the other, I mean epic when like, we make this change that will break the ToS and we even prepared a video that makes us look like the victim here and we'll take you to court .... but expect to continue making money thanks to you (UE fees and stuff like that).
What Wok posted. Theyno longer have access to the dev SDKs and won't be able to update iOS/Mac support fot the Unreal Engine until this stuff is sorted out, something like that.
I don't know if this will directly affect UE4 developers immediately (iirc Apple can forcefully pull the plug on already installed apps), but should definitely hurt in the long run,
The issue is that if Apple has the power to kill Epic's entire business before the lawsuit is settled, and uses this power, then it is clear that Apple is in a position which is a bit too powerful. Who could go against Apple? Governments, that is all.
And when it comes to Facebook or Google, which do not sell hardware, I think only the US government can fight, because they are American companies. If European governments try too hard to fight them (for instance, their tax evasion), we could see similar retaliations against whole countries. For instance, Google could remove Gmail from Europe, or its search engine (which remains the best as far as I am concerned). It is my imagination, but I could see it happen one day.
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This news made my day. I hope Google will do the same.
I'm not even sure the court will do anything about it, because Epic deliberately broke Apple's ToS + they tried to damage Apple's reputation.
While Apple's policies definitely suck, I feel Epic is doing this the worst way possible. Same for EGS with their moneyhats.
OP
Apple is under no obligation to maintain a business relationship with anyone for any reason.
I loathe Apple and Google, but it's not like they've acted predatory towards Epic - they opened up their house and let them develop UE4 for their operating systems, knowing that Epic were good at what they did. It was mutually beneficial and then Epic spat in their faces, pretty much.
I also don't think Epic expected Apple to escalate this. This is a serious loss of leverage for Epic, and I expect there will be long-lasting ramifications of this.
I must admit, I am enjoying it. But I do feel for the developers who threw their projects behind Unreal Engine. Epic has fucked them too.
I loathe Apple and Google, but it's not like they've acted predatory towards Epic - they opened up their house and let them develop UE4 for their operating systems, knowing that Epic were good at what they did. It was mutually beneficial and then Epic spat in their faces, pretty much.
I also don't think Epic expected Apple to escalate this. This is a serious loss of leverage for Epic, and I expect there will be long-lasting ramifications of this.
I must admit, I am enjoying it. But I do feel for the developers who threw their projects behind Unreal Engine. Epic has fucked them too.
That is beyond crazy. Apple is keeping it really real.
At the same time, Epic goofed so hard by making this a whole thing instead of just pursuing legal action without burning bridges for themselves and everyone else at the same time. That is really irresponsible even if I do agree with general arguments they put forth about Google and Apple's ecosystems.
Is Epic gonna keep users and developers hostage each time they don't get what they want?
At the same time, Epic goofed so hard by making this a whole thing instead of just pursuing legal action without burning bridges for themselves and everyone else at the same time. That is really irresponsible even if I do agree with general arguments they put forth about Google and Apple's ecosystems.
Is Epic gonna keep users and developers hostage each time they don't get what they want?
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I don't think this is a likely scenario. Making your search engine or email service unavailable to 450 million people and the richest single market region of the world is suicide. Microsoft or other competitors would happily fill the void asap and your own market value would plummet like crazy.
I have the feeling that this happens more often than not. Especially with big companies. For example, there were pretty big lawsuits between Samsung and Apple, while Samsung was also a major supplier to Apple.
It is interesting to see Apple reacting this way. They seem pissed...
Ah, I see we are now in the “find out” phase of “fuck around and find out.”
Apple went straight to the nukes but Epic acted in bad faith from the start. They violated the ToS willingly and knowingly and even had that stupid video, PR caimpaign and lawsuit ready for when Apple, inevitably, would respond.
There are no good guys between all these companies but Epic has proved time and time again they aren't the lesser evil.
Epic: Shots Fired
Apple: Carpet Bombing.
Apple wants to keep all of their revenue and turn opposition to ashes.
I expected nothing less.
Apple: Carpet Bombing.
Apple wants to keep all of their revenue and turn opposition to ashes.
I expected nothing less.
I wonder if those kinds of tweets are useable in court against Epic. This is the Epic CEO saying that companies like Apple have a reason to ask for 30%.
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The longer I think about this: There was zero chance Epic didn't know this was at least a possibility.
Them playing the surprised victim now is a typical Tim move. They used ue devs and fortnite players as sacrificial pawns on a chess board that is way too big for them.
edit:
The longer I think about this: There was zero chance Epic didn't know this was at least a possibility.
Them playing the surprised victim now is a typical Tim move. They used ue devs and fortnite players as sacrificial pawns on a chess board that is way too big for them.
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This is the most entertainment Epic has provided me with since Unreal Tournament 2004.
Probably. Maybe it has to do with the fact that samsung was a big company with many divisions. Or Epic weird approach (changing the app + the video + suing, and acting like a saviour).
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!
A part of me was kind of hoping for something like this, Apple going scorched earth and just cutting all ties with Epic. But I honestly never expected it to happen because of the insane amount of money in play here. This is kind of nuts.
Probably not the best move from Apple. If anything I think it'd make the court system see them in an unfavorable light. If anything I would think this would make a better case for Epic as it further suggest Apple is violating antitrust laws.
Ultimately, there’s nothing Epic can do to change the fact that they intentionally broke Apple’s ToS and made a PR stunt out of doing so. That alone makes them look terrible in the legal system. Several corporations including Spotify have ongoing lawsuits against Apple for revenue share reasons but are still obeying the rules and doing business on the App Store, Epic is the outlier because they broke the rules first, got punished, and then complained.
Blacklist between companies exist since the beginning of everything, that's not something new
As a product holder I can freely decide if I want to work with you or not
Its like when Valve ban someone from Steam, only difference is that we are talking about Epic here and not some random indie devs that no one knows (With all due respect for them)
And that is exactly why walled gardens are bullshit. Anger the gatekeeper, there is nothing you can do, no power or control you can leverage to stop this from happening.
Incidentally, have I talked about Windows 10's forced updates lately?
Incidentally, have I talked about Windows 10's forced updates lately?
You could also make the argument Apple retaliated in response to the lawsuit (which is what they seem to be doing). Apple didn't threaten to pull their tools until after the lawsuit was filed which potentially makes them look bad.
Samsung and Apple were fighting over patents (for the most part) and Samsung wasn't coming after Apple's bread and butter (or vice versa). Epic is also a fly compared to Smasung. Apple knew to not go too far here.
When people talk about Samsung, they think about Samsung Electronics. Which is huge on their own and not even because of Smartphones or TVs. Mainly because of their ability to manufacture nand, flash storage and other silicon chips. They are making the new Ampere GPUs for Nvidia for example.
But Samsung is also a Titan in the heavy industry, engineering, process engineering, and construction business
I'm going to let you in on a little secret. There are a couple companies in the world that can build massive industrial facilities out of thin air. Samsung is one of them. Took them quite some time to establish that they can build at high quality and be reliable at it.
To quote my old professor: Thank god that they haven't decided to compete in the EU yet and still concentrate on the Asian market. Or the (german) process engineering industry would be in deep trouble. And the german process engineering industry is massive, reliable and proven.
But Samsung with all its subsidiaries is huge and powerful.
I'd even go as fas and say: They are cooperate Cyberpunk powerful.
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