|OT| Epic vs Apple/Google - Battle of the Tims

Arc

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Sep 19, 2020
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I assume this is the most likely outcome. I don't know what kind of power the judge would have to force Apple to make company policy changes, but she might strongly recommend Apple revise its anti-steering rules and its game streaming rules. Apple will probably comply to get regulators off their back.
 

Myradeer

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Apr 17, 2019
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Yeah honestly I expect a result that'll give both parties enough wiggle room to claim victory.
 

Paul

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Jan 26, 2019
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From the recent Embracer Group report:

During the past financial year, the actual fees paid to platform-holders (console and Steam) for digital sales alone are estimated to be a least 2x the actual costs spent on game development during the past fiscal year. We will continue to challenge these paradigms and pursue opportunities to reduce costs and increase the relative investment into content creation.
I bet the entire industry, sans Apple, Google and Sony, would love to see Sweeney win this, at least in some way.
 

Arc

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Closing arguments are today, but otherwise the trial is done and the only thing left is to await the verdict and the years of appeals. Just from watching the Hoeg videos, I think Epic will get a partial win (primarily with steering rules), but they most likely aren't getting what they really wanted. It would be funny if both companies wound up appealing the verdict.
 

Alexandros

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Nov 4, 2018
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Closing arguments are today, but otherwise the trial is done and the only thing left is to await the verdict [UWSL]and the years of appeals[/UWSL]. Just from watching the Hoeg videos, I think Epic will get a partial win (primarily with steering rules), but they most likely aren't getting what they really wanted. It would be funny if both companies wound up appealing the verdict.
Yeah I'm very curious to see what the final verdict will be. I followed the proceedings pretty closely and it does seem that some sort of ban on Apple anti-steering rules will happen. The most important fact about such a verdict in my opinion won't be how said ban is going to be implemented but that, in order to impose it, the judge necessarily has to rule that Apple does have a monopoly over its own ecosystem. This would be huge since it would mean that owners of walled gardens can't hide behind the "it's all proprietary and we can do what we want" argument anymore.
 

TioChuck

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Dec 31, 2018
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So the trial is over, and now to wait for the veredict, so what we learned?

Epic and Sweeney wants:
-to not pay fees inside the app because of impulse buy(fuck them kids);
-a exclusive deal with Apple to benefit only Epic(fuck them devs);
-to Apple to distribute EGS through the App Store without fees;
-To be the supreme overlord of a Oasis(Ready Player One) type world whem AR hits;
-To have control of all the money inside the Oasis;

Apple wants:
-to everything to stay the same;

Am I missing something?
 

Alextended

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Mivey

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Sep 20, 2018
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So, Epic essentially won even though it wasn't due to their own arguments (monopoly etc.)? What?
Actually, it's a bit weaker than the headline of this article suggests. The judge orders Apple to allow external links of various kinds which then allow people to purchase things. So Apple doesn't have to outright allow Paypal or other payment services. They just can't stop an app developer from linking to their own website, where they can use whatever payment mechanism they like.
 
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gabbo

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Dec 22, 2018
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So, Epic essentially won even though it wasn't due to their own arguments (monopoly etc.)? What?
Or I don't get it, this seems to imply they can input their own in app payments to avoid the fees, right? But nothing on the "allow other stores on iOS" front, right?
More like Apple's defense of why no other payments methods wasn't good enough to sway it from being anti-steering, but they don't need to allow other app stores nor direct payments methods - just external, as I understand it
Edit: Mind you, Epic will probavly have a PR tweet blitz ready to go about how they won, this is huge for the little guy, theyre helping other app devs etc
 
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Alextended

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Okay, that'd be nice if Epic really lost their big desires, but the "buttons, external links, or other calls to action that direct customers to purchasing mechanisms, in addition to In-App Purchasing" seems to imply the payment methods can be built in & just as easy to use as In-App Purchasing for the user with a button, no?
 
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Arc

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Effectively they both lost. Epic did not get what they truly wanted and Apple has to make a large concession.
 

NarohDethan

日本語の学生
Apr 6, 2019
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Epic should just take the L and release the game today and keep raking in the millions lmao
 

EdwardTivrusky

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Dec 8, 2018
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I'm pretty sure Apple's Lawyers could word it so that it makes Apple seem like the nice people and let fortnite back on for that sweet, sweet Fortnite money.
Tim would cry but would the Fortnite fanbase care? Are they loyal to Fortnite or Epic? Was there a large fortnite community on Apple that would come back to the ecosystem or have they moved on?
 

C-Dub

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Dec 23, 2018
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Effectively they both lost. Epic did not get what they truly wanted and Apple has to make a large concession.
This is a tiny concession. With anti-Silicon Valley legislation happening around the world, and with Big Tech facing antitrust action in the US, Apple was already prepared to make that concession. All this case has done is bring it forward a couple of years.

I dunno fortnite money is very sweet :p
It's chump change for Apple. Fortnite makes most of its money on console.

I'm pretty sure Apple's Lawyers could word it so that it makes Apple seem like the nice people and let fortnite back on for that sweet, sweet Fortnite money.
Tim would cry but would the Fortnite fanbase care? Are they loyal to Fortnite or Epic? Was there a large fortnite community on Apple that would come back to the ecosystem or have they moved on?
I don't know how Apple are going to act, but Epic is steadfast that they won't bring it back until they get what they want.

Frankly I think Apple will keep the status quo - ban Fortnite but leave the tools well alone. But I'd be interested to see what happens if they ban the tools also.
 

manchego obfuscator

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Jan 23, 2020
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so basically, Apple has to allow apps to link to external payment options, but they can still block apps from offering alternative payment options within the app itself? doesn't seem like that big a blow for them if so
 

Ascheroth

Chilling in the Megastructure
Nov 12, 2018
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But I'd be interested to see what happens if they ban the tools also.
Absolutely.
Regardless of whether they do it or not though, if I were an iOS developer and would have to choose an engine, I'm not so sure I'd pick Unreal. In that sense it will definitely hurt Epic anyway.
 

Ascheroth

Chilling in the Megastructure
Nov 12, 2018
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They both lost, but I'm not so sure Apple lost as much as Jason is thinking.

To be clear: "Under all models, Apple would be entitled to a commission or licensing fee, even if IAP was optional." Page 68 https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21060631/apple-epic-judgement.pdf
So even if an app had no IAP and directed all purchases to an outside website, Apple would still be allowed to collect money. Whether that means they still claim 30% or have a lower cut for outside purchases or base the commission/licensing fee on something else entirely, I dunno. But it seems the "make F2P app and only include off-app purchases, get all the money and pay Apple nothing" reality is not likely.

Sill, will have to wait for Hoeg's video on that for the details, will probably have more insights on how that could or would work.
 

Wok

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So even if an app had no IAP and directed all purchases to an outside website, Apple would still be allowed to collect money. Whether that means they still claim 30% or have a lower cut for outside purchases or base the commission/licensing fee on something else entirely, I dunno. But it seems the "make F2P app and only include off-app purchases, get all the money and pay Apple nothing" reality is not likely.

Sill, will have to wait for Hoeg's video on that for the details, will probably have more insights on how that could or would work.
There is a big difference between a percentage of revenue and a licensing fee.

 

Ascheroth

Chilling in the Megastructure
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There is a big difference between a percentage of revenue and a licensing fee.
Yes, but it says licensing fee or comission. And a percentage of revenue is basically a type of commission, right?