Community MetaSteam | June 2021 - Alex Kidd in Monetary Mishandling Management DX

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Swenhir

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Apr 18, 2019
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Customers have no control and no influence over such decisions. Corporations are the ones throwing developers into the meat grinder.
They do have an indirect influence in behaving like children when faced with alpha footage and delays. They aren't exactly making transparency about the dev process any easier, or delays a lighter decision which is especially fucked-up considering how hard and unpredictable gamedev is.

To be blunt, the way people treat games in early access and similar circumstances - that is, with impatience and ridiculing bugs - makes it very hard not to roll my eyes in exasperation. Joe average's expectations are completely out of tune when it comes to game development, which would be fine in itself if people weren't simultaneously so quick to bully and ridicule online. There's a reason that even noclip isn't even remotely showing how the sausage is made in all its gory details.

Edit : I think you are also obscuring the sort of harassment and attacks that players indulge in, sometimes in the extreme, toward the devs. I've seen more than my share of obsessed groups of individuals stalk and behave in reprehensible ways just because a game wasn't moving in the direction they wanted, or as fast as they wished.
 
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Dinjoralo

None shall remember those who do not fight.
Dec 6, 2018
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SteamOS... Well, it ain't gonna be the year of the Linux desktop any time soon, but that's gotta be a lot better for a dedicated box than licensing Windows and coming up with more hacky stuff to work around it with.
 

Cacher

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Jun 3, 2020
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I was travelling through Steam Activity timeline and stumbled upon a few things.

Both this and the following are published by Why So Serious. Very cool to see more small Japanese companies are banking on steam, and they both look very interesting.
 

Cacher

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Jun 3, 2020
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I was expecting a little Japanese Jank when viewing Revolving Wonderland's Steam page, but it looks like it has good production value behind it. Looked through their published games list on Steam and found this as well.

The trailer is so wacky... I love it.
 
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Alexandros

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They do have an indirect influence in behaving like children when faced with alpha footage and delays. They aren't exactly making transparency about the dev process any easier, or delays a lighter decision which is especially fucked-up considering how hard and unpredictable gamedev is.

To be blunt, the way people treat games in early access and similar circumstances - that is, with impatience and ridiculing bugs - makes it very hard not to roll my eyes in exasperation. Joe average's expectations are completely out of tune when it comes to game development, which would be fine in itself if people weren't simultaneously so quick to bully and ridicule online. There's a reason that even noclip isn't even remotely showing how the sausage is made in all its gory details.

Edit : I think you are also obscuring the sort of harassment and attacks that players indulge in, sometimes in the extreme, toward the devs. I've seen more than my share of obsessed groups of individuals stalk and behave in reprehensible ways just because a game wasn't moving in the direction they wanted, or as fast as they wished.
I am not denying that people can act like children online. I am saying that publishers do not make decisions based on the reactions of those people. Crunch, games releasing broken or unfinished, developers burning out, all of these happen because companies want to maximize profit. Everything else is an excuse meant to distract people from the real issue. The games industry has a history of avoiding accountability by blaming gamers for everything wrong with it.
 

Panda Pedinte

Best Sig Maker on the board!
Sep 20, 2018
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yeah, question by a guy who doesn't use linux

what does this mean
I'm not the most knowledge person about Linux, but some points:

The SteamOS was based on Debian, though according to that user it will move to Arch, other Linux distro that's know to be lightweight, maybe it will be used on the rumored SteamPal.

Maybe some smarter people can provide a better context and explain the technical part.
 
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mastemas

truman doctrine (actual norwegian guy)
Apr 15, 2021
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I'm not the most knowledge person about Linux, but some points:

The SteamOS was based on Debian, though according to that user it will move to Arch, other Linux distro that's know to be lightweight, maybe it will be used on the rumored SteamPal.

Maybe some smarter people can provide a better context and explain the technical part.
if it's moving from one thing to another thing, probably some benefit to it
apparently arch has less restrictions, i've seen it being called "bleeding edge" at least 3 times in the 5 minutes i searched it up
 

Swenhir

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Apr 18, 2019
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I am not denying that people can act like children online. I am saying that publishers do not make decisions based on the reactions of those people. Crunch, games releasing broken or unfinished, developers burning out, all of these happen because companies want to maximize profit. Everything else is an excuse meant to distract people from the real issue. The games industry has a history of avoiding accountability by blaming gamers for everything wrong with it.
I would completely agree with your regarding publishers. I think you know this to be sincere given the positions I've held along the years, especially regarding the EGS-related debacles.

I do still think that there's a tendency to absolve people of guilt for their behavior toward professionals and of having a toxic impact on the industry. I think we should avoid whitewashing this. It's also something of a case by case thing, we're past sweeping generalities there. I'm notably thinking of Star Citizen and CIG, which while not faultless, are trying their best to do what so many have been clamoring for : not releasing broken products, taking their time, innovating, finding new answers to new design questions, not crunching, this sort of thing. Meanwhile, the gaming public and media, to their shame, cannot have enough of trying to stir up, find and even make up drama where there's none to hate on the project and some individuals in the company. I kid you not, some of them have formed groups actively working against the project with the obsessiveness of narcissists and disturbed people. They have even tried to social engineer their way into the company and media outlets, even managing to get some articles and pieces made to their views.

There is this conception among the community that I find hard to completely disagree with that, since CIG does not rely on the media's marketing, nor do they buy ad space, they are fair game to them for clickbait articles, damn be facts, honesty or doing harm.

More generally, no matter the game, as soon as there's a whiff of controversy, there is this crowd of people that seems always ready to come out of the woodwork to get angry and turn any conversation space into a toxic cesspool of anger and misinformation. People are ridiculing alpha products and early access games for having bugs, and from the perspective of a developer this is putting a pretty heavy chill on open communicating and educating the audience when this is who stands on the other side. It's a sentiment that I think is echoed across many studios - that people, even journalists, don't understand how game development works and what normal looks like, and how both varied and complex it is, and they don't even care to listen.

Then of course publishers step in and muddy the waters even more, giving the impression that games are made in the few months between E3 and fall and promoting incredibly exploitative behaviors and misconceptions. Still, the problem I've tried to articulate is one that really bugs and bothers me and I feel it's not really touched on.
 
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Alextended

Segata's Disciple
Jan 28, 2019
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Everyone has their own problems to deal with in their job and life, devs aren't some innocent group targeted by ungrateful customers, they're most likely behaving the same to someone else, as humans. Should Unity devs go all aw man game engine dev is hard and goes unappreciated, I've had enough of online memes trashing our work and how our engine sucks, if it sucks so much just go use UE5 already ffs. So yeah everyone could stand to be nicer but at the end of the day what matters to a dev is to make a living, if their game doesn't attract enough folks it will fail whether those folks are nice about it or not, they won't buy shit out of kindness (nor should anyone have to naturally, guilt tripping customers is hardly a good strategy anyone should pursue). Also seen memes about Blender and all kinds of other tools being shit in this or that stupid but expected for them way from devs since I follow loads of them.

Yesterday some (PC VR at that, as if VR on PC without Valve's involvement would amount to anything nowadays) dev responded to HTC's shen defending Steam's 30% with how it shouldn't be likened to Apple's since on PC you have a choice to use other stores etc., the dev said something like EGS is a gift to devs and Steam should change to 12% or they'll eventually be forced to change (I mean, if they'll eventually be forced why should they change earlier and lose the extra profits of that time, right?) and talking up the big user numbers of EGS like it's straight out of Timmy's tweets and bullshit PR.

I just responded with something like, the gift of not even getting approved for release on a closed store as an indie, then subsequent replies with the recent revelations from the Apple trial showing that people really aren't buying games, then how they're devaluing indie games more with freebies and coupons, how every dev who went for an EGS deal has been super eager to get on Steam to get more revenue because the presold Epic copies never get sold to customers so they don't get any more revenue than the initial deal, how there's also the matter of services and tools available in return etc., but really mostly just of EGS and how that trial proved it's an unsustainable business model since Epic is losing hundreds of millions on doing that stuff.

He wrote one reply asking me for proof (on twitter, knowing of character limits etc., come on, just google it) then blocked me, deleted his comment (so out of kindness I deleted my replies to him so no part of the discussion would show there any more, otherwise you could see who I'm responding to etc.) and went on a rant on his profile, how he can't stand people saying they won't buy his game if it's not on Steam (I was actually typing out a comment saying I'd buy his game from his site if he doesn't think the fee Steam charges is worth it and will just do the legwork they offer for it but never had a chance to post it) and how 30% can't ever be argued as fair and how he helped ship GTAV but got pitiful bonuses (clearly Rockstar's fault) and so on, but then deleted that stuff also, like, what? Not once did I say anything of the sort. Still now in his mind I'm part of the group of assholes you describe and contribute to affecting his mental health 🤷‍♂️
 
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Swenhir

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Apr 18, 2019
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Everyone has their own problems to deal with in their job and life, devs aren't some innocent group targeted by ungrateful customers, they're most likely behaving the same to someone else, as humans. Should Unity devs go all aw man game engine dev is hard and goes unappreciated, I've had enough of online memes trashing our work and how our engine sucks, if it sucks so much just go use UE5 already ffs. So yeah everyone could stand to be nicer but at the end of the day what matters to a dev is to make a living, if their game doesn't attract enough folks it will fail whether those folks are nice about it or not.
What happened to fairness, and having a point to criticize them over? What I'm seeing is, to be blunt, mob mentality and a few deranged people with an open desire to cause damage that not only aren't being called out, but are supported and entertained by a media hungry for clicks and drama.

That's what I'm concerned and annoyed about.
 

Alexandros

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Nov 4, 2018
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What happened to fairness, and having a point to criticize them over? What I'm seeing is, to be blunt, mob mentality and a few deranged people with an open desire to cause damage that not only aren't being called out, but are supported and entertained by a media hungry for clicks and drama.

That's what I'm concerned and annoyed about.
That's the internet in general. It gives assholes a loudspeaker and an audience.
 

Swenhir

Spaceships!
Apr 18, 2019
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That's the internet in general. It gives assholes a loudspeaker and an audience.
Well, you aren't wrong. Especially in the case I had in mind, where Somethingawful was directly involved and leading those efforts. It rarely gets more internet culture/troll than that.

That being said, what of media outlets? We're seeing the same with EGS coverage, where journalists's interest in actually being factual and honest seemed to be dim at best. Two years later, they are barely acknowledging consumers had a point.

Overall, I do not have a precise answer nor fix to the problem, but I wish it was more acknowledged. It seems people are quite comfortable with this shitshow of ignorance and arrogance.
 

Alexandros

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Nov 4, 2018
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Well, you aren't wrong. Especially in the case I had in mind, where Somethingawful was directly involved and leading those efforts. It rarely gets more internet culture/troll than that.

That being said, what of media outlets? We're seeing the same with EGS coverage, where journalists's interest in actually being factual and honest seemed to be dim at best. Two years later, they are barely acknowledging consumers had a point.

Overall, I do not have a precise answer nor fix to the problem, but I wish it was more acknowledged. It seems people are quite comfortable with this shitshow of ignorance and arrogance.
I don't think there is an answer. On one hand you've got business interests, on the other you've got human nature. The industry wants customers that remain silent and buy everything, it wants carte blanche to do anything that isn't straight-up illegal even if its morally reprehensible. Gamers are overly emotional, they don't unite because they'd rather engage in tribalism, they forget easily. Nothing will change. The best we can do is try and subtly push as many people as possible towards a healthier and more measured attitude.
 

thekeats1999

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Dec 10, 2018
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2D FF remakes incoming? Please?
I would absolutely love this if it's true.

It's something that always bugs me about remakes and remasters. Why don't they never give you access to the original versions. When I buy your god awful version of FFVI give me the SNES rom file as well.

I know it takes extra work, but something like the Monkey Island remakes should be the basis for remasters and remakes. Let me switch back to the original game with the original chiptune soundtrack.

Just as a footnote, I do understand why they don't release the originals (piracy/profitability/blah blah blah) but they are all corporate and as a consumer I don't really care.

So what I am saying is let me legally buy ROM files from the days of the NES/SNES/MD/Master System/PS1 days.
 

Line

meh
Dec 21, 2018
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I've been wanting to play FFV for a while now.
So I predict the remake to come out soon. :crystalblob:

Now, what kind of monkey paw shit will happen this time :thinking-face:
 
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