|OT| The PC Hardware Thread -- Buy/Upgrade/Ask/Answer

OP
Durante

Durante

I <3 Pixels
Oct 21, 2018
2,579
12,001
113
After reading several reviews, it looks like there's absolutely no reason to get DDR5 right now.
It's too bad that some of the higher-end boards I was considering aren't available as DDR4 versions.
 
  • Like
Reactions: d00d3n

Mivey

MeatMember
Sep 20, 2018
2,123
6,347
113
After reading several reviews, it looks like there's absolutely no reason to get DDR5 right now.
It's too bad that some of the higher-end boards I was considering aren't available as DDR4 versions.
To reduce the price, you mean? With a motherboard, you'd probably think about future proofing, and while DDR5 might be not very interesting in 2021, my understanding is that there's still the potential for much faster RAM arriving in the near future.
 
  • Like
Reactions: d00d3n
OP
Durante

Durante

I <3 Pixels
Oct 21, 2018
2,579
12,001
113
Sure, that would be a reason for some use cases. But in 20 years of owning a PC I've never replaced my memory (just expanded it, and the last time was over a decade ago).

I expect I'll buy a new PC in 3-4 years, and until then I won't replace the 64 GB I'm planning to buy now.
 
  • Like
Reactions: d00d3n and Stevey

d00d3n

Junior Member
Jan 26, 2019
186
286
63
After reading several reviews, it looks like there's absolutely no reason to get DDR5 right now.
It's too bad that some of the higher-end boards I was considering aren't available as DDR4 versions.
MSI MAG Z690 TOMAHAWK WIFI DDR4 seems like a pretty good choice if you want to go DDR4
 
OP
Durante

Durante

I <3 Pixels
Oct 21, 2018
2,579
12,001
113
I was thinking about the ASUS TUF Gaming Z690-Plus D4. I like that it has 2 USB C ports (and no Wifi -- I really don't need Wifi on my stationary PC).
 
  • Like
Reactions: d00d3n

Li Kao

It’s a strange world. Let’s keep it that way.
Jan 28, 2019
5,204
10,078
113
Jesus, with the report of the Deck I could maybe squeeze some medium upgrade to the PC, but those prices.
308 euros for a Ryzen 5600x ?
210 euros for a Fractal Torrent ?
170 euros for a Fractal Meshify 2 Compact ? (what's the Compact difference ? it's a medium case, right ?)

Are those regular prices or '2021 everything is shit' prices ?
 

d00d3n

Junior Member
Jan 26, 2019
186
286
63
Jesus, with the report of the Deck I could maybe squeeze some medium upgrade to the PC, but those prices.
308 euros for a Ryzen 5600x ?
210 euros for a Fractal Torrent ?
170 euros for a Fractal Meshify 2 Compact ? (what's the Compact difference ? it's a medium case, right ?)

Are those regular prices or '2021 everything is shit' prices ?
With the compact, there is only room for a 120 mm fan on the back outflow. So, may be a problem if you want slow and silent 140 mm fans everywhere
 
  • Love
Reactions: Li Kao

Li Kao

It’s a strange world. Let’s keep it that way.
Jan 28, 2019
5,204
10,078
113
With the compact, there is only room for a 120 mm fan on the back outflow. So, may be a problem if you want slow and silent 140 mm fans everywhere
Good point, the major drive behind the update is to at least have a PC and not an oven.
 
  • Like
Reactions: d00d3n

Alextended

Segata's Disciple
Jan 28, 2019
3,706
5,893
113
pastebin.com
So, do people think we're gonna get GPU prices come back down to normal like, ever? Like getting a very high end card (just not ti/titan) for ~500? I jumped on my 1080 for 506 after availability issues had just started to become widespread back then (iirc) and it was usually going for much higher prices than that. Those days seem to be behind us forever and ever to be honest. Even when the chip drought ends, if there's no competition as of right now, I don't see Nvidia wanting to sell anything but low end stuff for such prices and keep the high end for like 800 or 1000 or more, just not the crazy scalper prices. Has there been any real pushback from big publishers? Like surely if there are no high end GPUs around (to play games, not mine) what's the reason to dev/release games that utilize them other than a deal with Nvidia to include RTX or whatever? Just go low end, keep your games cross generation on console too since they have their own issues in the "next gen" there so that you reach the most people possible with your game should be a valid strategy, no? RTX maxed out videos will only be impressive for so long before people realize they won't be getting that at home, no? Especially since issues have lasted way longer than expected, it could result in a blow for the platform if games keep increasing their requirements just because better hardware theoretically exists but can't be bought by most.
 
Last edited:

Mivey

MeatMember
Sep 20, 2018
2,123
6,347
113
No, prices are here to stay.
With Intel entering the market, I could see both Nvidia and AMD offering price effective GPUs, like the GTX 970 of old was. But not before all these supply chain issues are over, and the Bitcoin craze has moved on from GPUs, which could happen if the move away from from proof of work ever happens.
 

Knurek

OG old coot
Oct 16, 2018
1,736
4,092
113
Intel could make a top of the line GPU and put it for free in their CPUs and people would still not use them.
Drivers are as important to a GPU success as HW specs. And Intel's drivers still suck.
Even if ETH goes POS (which I don't believe it will, they've been dragging their feet on it for the past few years), there always will be alt-coins to be mined.
 

Stevey

Gromlintroid
Dec 8, 2018
1,885
5,436
113
38
Yeah I can't see the prices dropping anytime soon, I bit the bullet and paid way over the odds, but it should keep me going for a few years.
 

Mivey

MeatMember
Sep 20, 2018
2,123
6,347
113
Intel could make a top of the line GPU and put it for free in their CPUs and people would still not use them.
Drivers are as important to a GPU success as HW specs. And Intel's drivers still suck.
Even if ETH goes POS (which I don't believe it will, they've been dragging their feet on it for the past few years), there always will be alt-coins to be mined.
Intel is a huge company, and so far their drivers are bad simply because they haven't been taking the gaming market very seriously. If they aggressively push to improve their drivers across all popular games, new and old, I could see them gaining lots of grounds very quickly.
Of course, it all depends on how much money Intel is willing to spend on this. As we see right now with Rockstar, just because a company could use infinite money to make sure their games are excellent, doesn't mean that they will actually spent any significant money on things.
 
Last edited:

Parsnip

Riskbreaker
Sep 11, 2018
1,798
3,651
113
Finland
I wonder if the next batch of GPUs, RTX 4000 series and whatever the AMD's equivalent will be called, will use the 12 pin connector across the board and not just on Nvidia's FE cards.
 
  • Like
Reactions: d00d3n

d00d3n

Junior Member
Jan 26, 2019
186
286
63
How do you check what ssd drive you are installing windows on? I have two completely unused 2tb nvme drives, one connected to the CPU and one to the chipset, so I obviously want to install on the first drive. But they look exactly the same in the windows installer?!? Do I have to disconnect the chipset ssd to be sure? They are different models, one samsung and one wd.
 

Parsnip

Riskbreaker
Sep 11, 2018
1,798
3,651
113
Finland
How do you check what ssd drive you are installing windows on? I have two completely unused 2tb nvme drives, one connected to the CPU and one to the chipset, so I obviously want to install on the first drive. But they look exactly the same in the windows installer?!? Do I have to disconnect the chipset ssd to be sure? They are different models, one samsung and one wd.
Maybe you can disable the chipset one through bios temporarily?

Otherwise, installing Windows takes relatively little time these days that you might as well install it on the top most drive from the list and see if that's the correct one in 10 minutes or so. If it's not the correct disk, just repeat the process, nuke the install and pick the other one. :D
 
  • Like
Reactions: d00d3n

d00d3n

Junior Member
Jan 26, 2019
186
286
63
Maybe you can disable the chipset one through bios temporarily?

Otherwise, installing Windows takes relatively little time these days that you might as well install it on the top most drive from the list and see if that's the correct one in 10 minutes or so. If it's not the correct disk, just repeat the process, nuke the install and pick the other one. :D
It was not possible to disable in the bios, so I ended up physically disconnecting the wrong ssd. But yeah, I should probably have went ahead and prepared for a fast reinstall instead of doing what I did …
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pommes

GoodCoffeeJoey

Junior Member
Apr 24, 2019
7
13
3
I'm thinking of upgrading my old PC (build 2013) for as cheap as possible. I replaced the GPU with a GTX1060 a few years ago, and now I think I'm bottlenecked by the CPU. My plan is to upgrade the CPU without replacing the motherboard. Currently I have a I5-4670k, and the best CPU the MOBO (ASUS Maximus VI Hero) is compatible with would be I7-4790k. An issues with this plan? It seems worth from what I can tell.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Li Kao

Li Kao

It’s a strange world. Let’s keep it that way.
Jan 28, 2019
5,204
10,078
113
Logitech G502 HERO 49.99 (44%)
Corsair SABRE RGB PRO CHAMPION SERIES 49.95 (17%)
SteelSeries Sensei Ten 44.99 (44%)

Any clear recommendation between those ? Or even some others ? I won't be able to endure my wheel scroll being this broken for far longer.
All I know is my current one is a G502 and don't like it, the click sound feels a little too plasticy / springy. BUUUT as the French say, 'you know what you lose, not what you get'. Meaning, I don't like it, but I know what to expect, I won't be surprised. The others, no idea.
 

EdwardTivrusky

Good Morning, Weather Hackers!
Dec 8, 2018
5,284
9,838
113
"Better the devil you know." would be the equivalent in English.

Out of those i would say the Steelseries but purely because i haven't heard dreadful things about them recently.
Logitech have button and wheel issues and their software was horrid. I have a G402 that was okay but a bit small for me so i now run a Corsair Ironclaw which is much better but iCue software annoys me. I have had no issues but people have reported wheel and button issues with Corsair too.

The problem is that everybody's hands are different and so is their posture so for every mouse you'll find people saying it's bad which is really annoying when trying to find a new mouse. Also that Sensei Ten says it's suitable for Claw, Palm and Fingertip grip so it should suit most people.
 
  • Hug
Reactions: Li Kao

Stevey

Gromlintroid
Dec 8, 2018
1,885
5,436
113
38
I have a G502 and know what you mean about the wheel click.
Corsair iCue software is garbage IMO.
Not read anything about Steelseries, so don't have an opinion onn that.

Why not go back to the classic?

 

Parsnip

Riskbreaker
Sep 11, 2018
1,798
3,651
113
Finland
I have the G603, it fits my grip pretty well. I never use wheel click though so I don't know if that's bad in this one. Occasionally the mouse cursor just flies to a top corner of the screen for some reason, I suspect it's wireless interference rather any hardware issue with the mouse, but I haven't been able to confirm it one way or another.

I could never go back to using a wired mouse though, especially now that I actually do most of my computing on the couch anyway.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Li Kao

EdwardTivrusky

Good Morning, Weather Hackers!
Dec 8, 2018
5,284
9,838
113
Didn't even occur to me to say that i've had no issues with Wheel-click because i always remap middle/wheel click to one of the thumb buttons. It's literally the first thing i look to do with a new mouse.
 

Li Kao

It’s a strange world. Let’s keep it that way.
Jan 28, 2019
5,204
10,078
113
To be honest there seems to have been a slight misunderstanding. Or I have badly expressed myself.

My wheel scroll is dying (which makes it click instead of roll) and I didn’t like the sound made when clicking the main buttons on the G502.
I never use wheel click and if it wasn’t useful for blender and co I would gladly see it burn in hell.

Now on the other hand, the side buttons are my life. So much that I would he interested to see if they could work as intuitively if there were 3-4 instead of 2.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Stevey

Stevey

Gromlintroid
Dec 8, 2018
1,885
5,436
113
38
Ah, I see. I mis-read your post :negative-blob:

Yeah the main buttons seem to spring back sometimes and make a vibration type noise which is annoying.
 
  • Hug
Reactions: Li Kao

derExperte

MetaMember
Dec 9, 2018
1,845
5,259
113
Logitech G502 HERO 49.99 (44%)
Corsair SABRE RGB PRO CHAMPION SERIES 49.95 (17%)
SteelSeries Sensei Ten 44.99 (44%)

Any clear recommendation between those ? Or even some others ? I won't be able to endure my wheel scroll being this broken for far longer.
All I know is my current one is a G502 and don't like it, the click sound feels a little too plasticy / springy. BUUUT as the French say, 'you know what you lose, not what you get'. Meaning, I don't like it, but I know what to expect, I won't be surprised. The others, no idea.
I strongly recommend NOT buying a G502 in this day and age because it was clunky, unwieldy and heavy from the start and is now completely outdated. Haven't used the other two and don't see them recommended regularly, so searching on YT for reviews could be a good idea.

But how about a Razer Viper, should be in that price range during Black Friday? Been using them since their release and at least for my hands it's the best mouse I've ever used. If you want something larger there's the Basilisk. Deathadder is still good if you have bigger hands and they regularly re-release them with improved internals and reduced weight (I know it doesn't sound like a lot but if you got used to 60-75g it's hard going much higher again).

Small hands? Lots of Mini-version out there. Depends on your grip-style too:



One that I almost started using as my main is the Endgame Gear XM1, good series, not sure about current price.

Thing is, the market for mice has been wild these past few years with tons of new manufacturers like Glorious, so I feel the 'I know what I like' approach is too limiting. Personally I'd check out a few YTbers that focus on mice to see what's out there.








Also of note, there are now some great wireless gaming mice with insanely low weight (Logtech X Superlight), they're usually more expensive though. And get ready to see a bunch of them with holes for weight reduction, I had and liked the Coolermaster MM711 for example, as mentioned there's Glorious. And thousands others. Can be overwhelming but pleaaaaase don't just buy another G502. There's also no shame in trying out a few of them and sending them back, if possible.
 
Last edited:
  • Love
  • Like
Reactions: xinek and Li Kao

EdwardTivrusky

Good Morning, Weather Hackers!
Dec 8, 2018
5,284
9,838
113
Razer Software tho. It's the reason i haven't looked at their hardware for a few years.
Do they still require you to be online and have an online account with them because the mouse saves settings in the cloud?
Does it still do that bizarro coinmining/tokens thing?

Also not really a fan of the practicality of a mouse with holes in it due to dust and skin and everyday gunk getting into it and making it all icky.
I tend to use my mouse for hours and hours a day and leave it lying out so having to open it up to clean the innards all the time would annoy me.
It's why i haven't gone for one of the FinalMouse variants and some of them have been amazing but also ball-achingly expensive. lol

I'm not a pro-gamer so shaving o.2g off the weight of the mouse isn't going to impact me to any real extent.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Stevey and Li Kao

EdwardTivrusky

Good Morning, Weather Hackers!
Dec 8, 2018
5,284
9,838
113
Sister has asked me to spec a PC for her eldest who is 13, i think, anyway it's for Minecraft, Oculus VR ( Typical, she doesn't know what he has lol ) the usual stuff for a young lad who wants to spend his Christmas & Birthday money from the last year. Apparently he's much like me and well into computers, tech, gaming etc.


edit: Sister has just said he has an Oculus 2. Things i want to check are Spire heatsink & case clearance, HDMI & DisplayPort versions on mobo and Windows 11 compatibility but i'll buy him an OEM Windows 10 key anyway. It's only about £20.

I've put together this as a basic start spec and it might be overkill but it should do what he needs with a bit of oomph and some space for upgrades later. I've gone for 16GB, two SSD and one can be dropped and integrated graphics because GFX card prices are stupid and he can look for one 2nd hand or buy one later on. Which is why i went for a chunk PSU.

Any better budget AMD Ryzen 5 5600G mobos with Wifi you'd suggest?
I know nothing about Intel so if there's an equivalent Intel CPU with integrated GFX let me know. I know the new Iris XE is decent but it's only on laptops at the moment isn't it?
 
Last edited:

beep boop

boo
Dec 6, 2018
1,959
3,888
113
So 5600x is still the best budget option right now? I've kept holding off for on upgrading but I think now would be a good time if it gets a sale.

I've also been looking at the 5800x and the i5 12600K, which are not too far off price-wise (when on sale at least), but for the former I'd have to invest in some more heavy duty cooling and the latter requires a really pricy motherboard, so they seem to come out at least 70-100 euros more expensive anyway compared to the 5600x (with a modest B550 board).

I could theoretically wait it out until the new AMD lineup in Feb (I think?), but I imagine those will either be a pain to get or pricier than what the 5600x is going for now, including possible black friday/cyber monday deals.
 
Last edited:

Li Kao

It’s a strange world. Let’s keep it that way.
Jan 28, 2019
5,204
10,078
113
So 5600x is still the best budget option right now? I've kept holding off for on upgrading but I think now would be a good time if it gets a sale.
From the quick glance I took at amazon a few days ago, 'budget' is very relative unfortunately.
 

derExperte

MetaMember
Dec 9, 2018
1,845
5,259
113
Razer Software tho. It's the reason i haven't looked at their hardware for a few years.
Do they still require you to be online and have an online account with them because the mouse saves settings in the cloud?
Does it still do that bizarro coinmining/tokens thing?
No, you can use their software as a 'guest' and some devices allow saving profiles on their internal memory (unfortunately not the regular Viper and I think it doesn't save RGB settings no matter what). Logitech's solution is still more streamlined and some mice don't have any software at all but it's okay, at least not bad enough to ditch their hardware.

And no, not the regular software but they have a bunch of additional stuff that's optional, maybe coins are in there.

edit: Ordered a Viper Ultimate with charging dock for 60€, damn, ignoring GPUs there are some sweet deals for all the other stuff happening right now.
 
Last edited:

EdwardTivrusky

Good Morning, Weather Hackers!
Dec 8, 2018
5,284
9,838
113
The only deal i've looked at is the Stadia Pro for £22 which i took a punt on because at the very least it's a decent controller for £22.
Been looking at component lists and haven't even checked out Black Friday deals. Thinking about it, i don't usually bother as they're usually gone by the time i see them. I might have a look for a new TKL Keyboard though as my old Quickfire TK is playing up and all this talk of mice makes me want a new one.

Unfortunately the other things i want are GPU, CPU and Basestations for Index all of which are out of stock or stupid expensive.

Wouldn't mind a new Digital Media Player thinking about it as my Sansa Clip is finally dying. Any decent models out there?
 

Copons

MetaMember
Nov 12, 2018
443
1,101
93
Brighton, UK
copons.wordpress.com
Hi folks, long time no see! ✨

Apparently I managed to snipe an order for a 3070ti FE which should arrive by the end of the week, I can't tell y'all how excited I am to finally upgrade my ancient 780 (after the borked purchase of a DOA 2080S right before the pandemic started, and then I couldn't replace it anymore 😭).

Now, my PC is currently in a kind of awkward state for 2 reasons and I wanted to get some opinions.

The RAM

I had some Corsair low profile 2 x 16GB DDR4 3200.
One of the modules died a few months ago, and I never got around to replace it (with the underpowered GPU I haven't been playing anything intensive, and I don't use the PC for work).

So now, if I'm not mistaken, I have basically 16GB DDR4 1600.
Would running the RAM at that speed qualify as a bottleneck, generally speaking?
(This assuming that 16GB is still enough for most games)

The PSU

I have a Corsair TX 80+ Gold 650W.
The Nvidia specs for the 3070ti recommend 750W.

I think I should be good to go, considering my build is not that power hungry.

But: what happens if it turns out that my PSU is underpowered?
Am I risking damaging some components?

Is this one of those cases that I might be playing some performance intensive game, and suddenly the PC turns off?
 

EdwardTivrusky

Good Morning, Weather Hackers!
Dec 8, 2018
5,284
9,838
113
Thanks for that, i'll look into that bot. If i can snag a 3 series for myself then i can either sell my 2070 or give it to my Sister's eldest as he's getting into PC and if she can get the parts he'll be building his first PC in the next few months. It's for him i put together the build a few posts up

I'll probably buy him an iFixit kit for christmas so he's got some tools that hopefully aren't made out of butter.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Copons

fearthedawn

Junior Member
Apr 19, 2019
160
295
63
Hi folks, long time no see! ✨

Apparently I managed to snipe an order for a 3070ti FE which should arrive by the end of the week, I can't tell y'all how excited I am to finally upgrade my ancient 780 (after the borked purchase of a DOA 2080S right before the pandemic started, and then I couldn't replace it anymore 😭).

Now, my PC is currently in a kind of awkward state for 2 reasons and I wanted to get some opinions.

The RAM

I had some Corsair low profile 2 x 16GB DDR4 3200.
One of the modules died a few months ago, and I never got around to replace it (with the underpowered GPU I haven't been playing anything intensive, and I don't use the PC for work).

So now, if I'm not mistaken, I have basically 16GB DDR4 1600.
Would running the RAM at that speed qualify as a bottleneck, generally speaking?
(This assuming that 16GB is still enough for most games)

The PSU

I have a Corsair TX 80+ Gold 650W.
The Nvidia specs for the 3070ti recommend 750W.

I think I should be good to go, considering my build is not that power hungry.

But: what happens if it turns out that my PSU is underpowered?
Am I risking damaging some components?

Is this one of those cases that I might be playing some performance intensive game, and suddenly the PC turns off?
16GB is still enough for gaming and how games react to a single channel configuration varies from game to game, for many it's not much of a difference, for some you might lose 20% performance like this, look for single channel vs dual channel benchmarks.

You should be fine with your PSU, the recommendations have to account for 200W CPUs and yours isn't half that. Guessing your system would probably top out at <500W power draw. If you want to be extra sure undervolt your gpu, i managed to run my 3070 at 50W less power draw while keeping stock speeds.

Unfortunately a PSU breaking can take other components with it.
 

Copons

MetaMember
Nov 12, 2018
443
1,101
93
Brighton, UK
copons.wordpress.com
16GB is still enough for gaming and how games react to a single channel configuration varies from game to game, for many it's not much of a difference, for some you might lose 20% performance like this, look for single channel vs dual channel benchmarks.

You should be fine with your PSU, the recommendations have to account for 200W CPUs and yours isn't half that. Guessing your system would probably top out at <500W power draw. If you want to be extra sure undervolt your gpu, i managed to run my 3070 at 50W less power draw while keeping stock speeds.
I see, thanks!
I guess I'd rather buy a new PSU instead of undervolting my new GPU, but we'll see. 😅

Unfortunately a PSU breaking can take other components with it.
Yeah this is what concerns me the most. 😔
 

gabbo

MetaMember
Dec 22, 2018
2,760
4,423
113
Toronto
Is a 1660TI or a 2060 a worthy upgrade on a budget? I found a couple for decent prices (for 2021, anyway) and am wondering if theyd be a good upgrade path for 1080p to go in my wife's new pc. She's using my old GTX660, so it's going to be a big change, it's whether it's worth it before Nvidia redoes the 2060/30xx line as 12gb cards
 

Stevey

Gromlintroid
Dec 8, 2018
1,885
5,436
113
38
A 1660Ti will be a massive upgrade over a 660, as long as the rest of the system isn't holding it back.

I went from a 780 to a 1080 a few years back and it was night and day.
 
  • Like
Reactions: EdwardTivrusky

EdwardTivrusky

Good Morning, Weather Hackers!
Dec 8, 2018
5,284
9,838
113
If you can get the card now for a decent price i'd say go for it. You'll get a big boost in performance, depending on the CPU of course, and there's no guarantee that you'll be able to get your hands on a new model RTX2k/3k series on release anyway and what their RRP will be.

Is the retooling of the RTX line to 12GB imminent? Do we have a date? It might be worth waiting and seeing if you can pick up an old card of someone who's upgrading but then you have the potential issues with 2nd hand cards. Also at 1080p 8GB will be totally fine. What's the rest of the system spec?
 

gabbo

MetaMember
Dec 22, 2018
2,760
4,423
113
Toronto
B550 mortar, 16gb ddr4-3600, ryzen 5600x, in a Fractal Define R4 case, 970 evo nvme for OS and Crucial Mx500 1tb for games.

As for the retooled rtx lineup, ive heard by years end/early next year but i dont think anything official has released
 
Last edited:

Li Kao

It’s a strange world. Let’s keep it that way.
Jan 28, 2019
5,204
10,078
113
Jeez, looked at the Bose companion 2 serie 3, you are lucky to find one and it's still firmly in the 100 euros range.
Blue Yeti mic only have an Amazon discount on the very plain Black version.
I have no earthly idea which mouse to buy, and the Amazon discounts are mostly gone, on fucking Black Friday.

Grmbl.
 

PhaZZe

MetaMember
Mar 12, 2019
641
962
93
i own a 9600k, i have a friend interested in buying my mobo, my cpu, my cooler and my ram. i should sell it to bought a new 12600k with mobo, ram and cooler?
will worth it? probably will be a ddr4 mobo because i cant find ddr5.

i own a gtx 1070 and i cant bought a new gpu because prices here are insane. and im not sure how much the new cpu upgrade can be for gaming..