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|OT| Epic vs Apple/Google - Battle of the Tims
- Thread starter warp_
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I'm not sure this is true. Apple is a private company, so they have the right to decide who can sell software in their own store and who can't. The court has nothing to say about this.
[UWSL]Another point is that Apple's ToS clearly states that the dev account may be suspended in case of abuse. Epic signed and agreed with this ToS. [/UWSL]
It is when the consequence is unrelated to these prior events. This is like saying they are justified in torching your house for speaking against them out of turn at a press conference. It's fair that you'd get kicked out, but any further is just unjustifiable.
I'm not a lawyer but I'm feeling it's quite obvious Apple is throwing its weight around beyond the confines of what that lawsuit and Fortnite infraction entails.
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epic's original argument is less about what's allowed in apple's store. rather it's that only allowing their store and payment system as the sole way to install apps and sign up for subscriptions/iap is anti-competitive, among other things.
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the motion to seek an injunction (second suit) is partially arguing that the removal of their dev licenses is a retaliatory tactic performed by a defendant in the suit and also that they meet the requirements for an injunction (aka temporary pause while the lawsuit is ongoing) of the removal of their licenses. so in a way yes. they are arguing with the injunction that apple should not be allowed to decide that the company suing them suddenly doesn't belong on mac/ios in the middle of the lawsuit.
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the motion to seek an injunction (second suit) is partially arguing that the removal of their dev licenses is a retaliatory tactic performed by a defendant in the suit and also that they meet the requirements for an injunction (aka temporary pause while the lawsuit is ongoing) of the removal of their licenses. so in a way yes. they are arguing with the injunction that apple should not be allowed to decide that the company suing them suddenly doesn't belong on mac/ios in the middle of the lawsuit.
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Apple isn't torching Epics home because they will still win billions of dollars without it, it's not clear that what Apple is doing is illegal. And I'm pretty sure Epic (or their lawyers) knew this could happen and they just accepted as collateral damage (potentially sacrifice some devs that Epic doesn't care about in the slightest and further advance the ''freedom fighters'' propaganda that they are cooking).
ToS are not the law but the contracts are binding, and this isn't that simple as ''This company is anti-competitive'' or ''They have a monopoly and what they are doing is illegal'', things are not that simple and that's why courts exist, so that's why I find so weird Epic trying to turn it into some kind of mob justice, especially if it's that clear that they are going to win. A lot of this lawsuits get resolved without companies stopping making business between them.
I work pretty close with some lawyers that are following closely this case, and there is a ton of info from both sides to take into account. That's why I struggle to take seriously statements like ''Apple is just going to stomp Epic'' or ''Yeah, Apple is doing clearly illegal things and falling into the trap of Tim Sweeney''
I don't think Apple is doing anything clearly illegal but they are doing something deeply wrong on a common sense level, is how I feel about this. Best I can reason anyway. Epic walked into this knowingly but that doesn't make Apple's abuse of their power okay.
Whether the law agrees with this in the US is another matter that I don't feel comfortable getting close to.
Yeah, there's no possible way they didn't know, they either thought that all those devs were enough of a "protection" or they were willing to risk it and turn them into fodder, either outcome was ok for them.
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the original case will take years to get resolved if it ever does and i have mixed feelings on both ends of it, no matter who "wins". however, i feel the circumstances leading to the injunction request are an abuse of power and a harmful action to ue developers by apple to force epic into a compromised position in the lawsuit.
that's how i see it. i have no problem looking at these two motions very differently.
that's how i see it. i have no problem looking at these two motions very differently.
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Yeah, I don't think there's a clear argument that the account suspensions are retaliatory.
They are the standard designated response to ToS violations -- and really, if you as a company flagrantly violate your agreement with another company, not being able to do business with them anymore is usually the least of your troubles.
Phoenix RISING
A phoenix always RISES!
The hardware is yours, but that EULA you just don't read dictates what kind of software can be legally on your hardware.
I'll sooner entertain that the internet is a basic necessity before going after Apple or Google; smartphones are still luxuries, and the argument you're making for public life like banking is First World Problems AF.
I do agree with you that none of that will happen in the US anytime soon. Esp as long as republicans are in power. Anything that even remotely looks like social infrastructure here = MARXISM. We skip right over socialism right into atheist evil.
Edit: I wonder if Epic would have been better served filing a legal claim outside of the US. Who was it who made Valve/Blizzard remove lootboxes? Belgium?
Not sure about that. I see so many homeless people who own nothing but a smartphone, it is pretty much a necessity.
I don't have a smartphone, but that is out of personal choice, because I have the luxury to own a PC at home. I thought I would be able to open Firefox and access some website as an alternative to using an app. For some time, it has worked. These days, not anymore. Everything becomes complicated the moment you tell them you don't own a smartphone. In some cases, like medical apps, there is no option for people like me.
As someone who does not own a smartphone, I can tell that it is becoming more and more troublesome. I am barred from more and more stuff, like just recently, some enhanced security system to replace 2FA for accessing bank accounts on Internet (I actually need to physically go to the bank so that I am allowed to keep on using 2FA...), apps which are developed and recommended by some medical professionals, services like Uber, unlocking bikes, kick scooters, even cars, etc. All kinds of services which I thought I would be able to access thanks to my PC, but not anymore, it is mobile only.
Another example: public transportation. Physical tickets are going to be discontinued: for now, they exist, but their price have increased. If people want to pay the same price as before, they have to use digital tickets for the bus and the subway. That means either using a smartphone, or paying once for a card, like a debit card, specifically for the purpose of buying digital tickets.
tl;dr: smartphones are cheap computers, and more and more stuff rely on them, which exclude people who don't have one.
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Possible. Paid loot boxes are considered gambling here in Belgium.
Phoenix RISING
A phoenix always RISES!
Yeah.
I think EGS should have settled for a base hit or an RBI instead of a GRAND SLAM in this case.
I think they're gonna strike-out swinging.
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eu is actively investigating similar antitrust complaints against apple. there's a good chance they'll rule against apple considering they really don't take kindly to antitrust and corporate overreach over there. holding on long enough for the eu decision could help out epic a lot.
variety.com
these eu investigations, spotify's suit, and the us gov investigating apple and other tech giants sorta sets the tone that apple is at their most vulnerable on this issue right now so as far as timing it doesn't get much better for epic. doesn't mean this will pan out in their favor but it's their best shot.
also its worth noting that apple does allow alternate app stores in china, just not anywhere else. so their "no exceptions" line they've been pushing lately looks more and more silly.
Apple App Store, Apple Pay Targeted in EU Antitrust Probes, Spotify Cheers Moves
The European Union ratcheted up its scrutiny of Apple, launching formal antitrust investigations into the App Store and Apple Pay.
variety.com
also its worth noting that apple does allow alternate app stores in china, just not anywhere else. so their "no exceptions" line they've been pushing lately looks more and more silly.
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The EULA doesn't always stand up in court, and I think we can both agree that the things Apple is doing are wrong. The law just has yet to catch up in my opinon.
I'm with Wok here too. I have experienced what it's like not to have a smartphone, or a non-functioning one. Banking? Emails? All of that cripples your ability to do about anything. It's very, very close to a necessity, one you have to pay hundreds of bucks for and that are designed to break and...
I'm grumpy
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I just want all this to force Apple out of video games permanently now. Hopefully their own actions will frighten devs, crush future development, scare away mobile gamers, and lead to the downfall of the platform.
Probably far too much for now, but small beginnings.
Probably far too much for now, but small beginnings.
And then what? Is Google having a complete monopoly on mobile OS so much better? Or what about a scummy company like Epic controlling a major part of games development by expanding their EGS strategy to other platforms?
Don't get me wrong: I strongly disagree with Apples policies, but what Epic is doing now isn't much better. Royalty-free in-app purchases may also open the door for even more F2P crap with predatory MT's, not only on mobile but on pc and consoles as well.
My only hope for things to improve in our favor is the EU taking Apple to court, forcing them to offer better terms and revenue for all developers, but without giving greedy companies like Epic the chance to perform anti-competitive practices within Apples ecosystem.
Not entirely. Epic wouldn't be able to push new updates for the unreal engine, but ongoing projects with the current version of the engine will still work. Apple is not banning all games using the unreal engine. The are suspending Epic's developer account.
Also, one could also reason that Epic is the one fucking over these devs, by deliberately violating Apples ToS and starting a public attack on Apples business model. No company on earth would take such actions well.
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one could reason that but that seems like a silly conclusion to arrive at considering the other companies suing apple didn't get any licensing revoked. but i feel like i'm repeating myself at this point.
also the difference between banning use of the engine and not allowing any updates to the engine ever again on your platforms (some of which are not walled gardens) seems like a real thin line to argue over re: affects on developers. especially considering apple can push any update at any point to purposely break the engine on their devices.
also the difference between banning use of the engine and not allowing any updates to the engine ever again on your platforms (some of which are not walled gardens) seems like a real thin line to argue over re: affects on developers. especially considering apple can push any update at any point to purposely break the engine on their devices.
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As long as there isn't much money in 'apps', it doesn't really matter too much who makes the phones and phone OS. Divorcing the 'platforms' from the hardware makers would be really beneficial for mobile development, phone development, and in most ways humanity.
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i'd forgotten that ios 14 is getting ready to roll out. if ue sdk isn't updated that means that games using ue might not be able to run on current hardware. which of course has even larger implications for everyone involved. imagine someone going to the app store and seeing that a game will run on iphone 6/7/8/se but not their new $1000 iphone 11 
Epic Games Seeks to Form Coalition of Apple Critics
Epic Games, the videogame maker that started a daring legal brawl with Apple last week, is hoping to organize wider opposition to the tech giant. It could face an uphill battle in recruiting others to publicly join its cause.In recent weeks, Epic—which makes the hit game Fortnite—has reached out ...
www.theinformation.com
One defence of Apple and it's closed platform, and it's the safety aspect. Apple is pretty much the only company not trying to track everything about you and sell that data to everyone and anyone. Hell they even give you more control about that than any other platform.
So if Google would be the last big one left it would be a fucking horror show of dystopia shit. And I say this as an android user.
So if Google would be the last big one left it would be a fucking horror show of dystopia shit. And I say this as an android user.
One thing I'm asking myself is on what feet the battle against google is standing.
For one there are other android stores, even Samsung has its Galaxy Store preinstalled on their Smartphones (Fortnite is on there, for example) and it is possible to install apps without the use of any store in the first place. I do not understand on what ground Epic is fighting Google here.
I'm not defending google here, I find their data and privacy collection disgusting and malicious.
But the Android OS itself is much more open than iOS, especially when it comes to installing apps.
Today in: How to describe capitalism.
sorry
For one there are other android stores, even Samsung has its Galaxy Store preinstalled on their Smartphones (Fortnite is on there, for example) and it is possible to install apps without the use of any store in the first place. I do not understand on what ground Epic is fighting Google here.
I'm not defending google here, I find their data and privacy collection disgusting and malicious.
But the Android OS itself is much more open than iOS, especially when it comes to installing apps.
Today in: How to describe capitalism.
sorry
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As I do not own any Apple products and I don't play Fortnite I was not aware that people can buy vbucks and such by opening epic's page from the phone's browser. I think this weakens Epic's complaint regarding in-app purchases since there is an easy way to accomplish the same task on the same device.
That is quite true, but it's sad that a not-so-benevolent dictatorship is one of the only ways for corporations not to sell your newborn before you even date its mother or father.
While that's true. You can't advertise that in the app, and a lot of people might not know or might see it as too many extra steps or don't want to add their payment methods in another site. It's harder than it looks to convert customers to change their habits.
Anecdotally, Valve does something similar with Dota Underlords, which is cross play Steam/iOS/Android.
You can purchase the season pass in the desktop versions through Steam, or in-app but it's slightly more expensive.
Notice how it was not a big deal. nobody complained, and I assume it was kind of an ok situation for all parties involved, players included.
Maybe that should be the standard, the harder it is to buy MTX the better!
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well yeah, someone would have to be playing underlords to notice or complain
but yes, the main way companies deal with charges on ios are they either charge more (hbo max, most iap in games, disney+, tinder) or they just don't offer any way to pay and you need to have already subscribed or paid offsite since they can't mention anything but the appstore (netflix, spotify).
and of course there's also the third option that apple says doesn't exist since they never make any exceptions to their tos where they just waive the appstore fee because they like your company more than others (amazon) 0r just let you run your own appstore (wechat).
the case against google is partially based on them threatening oems (oneplus) to not include other app stores in their devices on their supposedly open os or making deals to make sideloading apps on certain devices more difficult (lg). epic approached both of these companies to make a deal about including the epic store on their devices. they made a deal with oneplus but then oneplus backed out when threatened by google and lg said they'd already made a deal with google to restrict sideloaded apps.
worth noting that the epic launcher is available on the samsung app store since, for better or worse, google has zero chance of ever being able to bully samsung.
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Phoenix RISING
A phoenix always RISES!
The EULA doesn't always stand up in court, and I think we can both agree that the things Apple is doing are wrong. The law just has yet to catch up in my opinon.
I'm with Wok here too. I have experienced what it's like not to have a smartphone, or a non-functioning one. Banking? Emails? All of that cripples your ability to do about anything. It's very, very close to a necessity, one you have to pay hundreds of bucks for and that are designed to break and...
I'm grumpy
Computers are ubiquitous. I'm not moving from the position that "palm-sized computer" being a luxury.
And no, I don't agree. Apple's stuff, their rules.
I don't want to get into an argument that at the end of the day comes down to personal convictions with Phoenix RISING. I hope for the same outcome as you though.
Also, kittens are great.
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yeah i didn't mean it as an attack or anything. i just hope they rule the other direction.
Phoenix RISING
A phoenix always RISES!
As a matter of fact, I'm the person who brought up the possibility of Epic winning in EU courts,
The US likes oligarchy which is why I'm researching how to GTFO.
Phoenix RISING
A phoenix always RISES!
I did consider mentioning the lawsuit against Microsoft and its Windows platform. The loophole wasn't the market dominance of the OS, but the fact that Internet Explorer comes preinstalled on the OS, which puts them at a competitive advantage versus Netscape (now Opera), Firefox, Google, etc.
I wasn't sure how it would apply as a precedent for Apple/Google vs Epic, so I didn't say anything.
You guys really should watch the Hoeg Law video Lashman posted yesterday. It's clear that Epic has a very weak case against Apple:
For the sake of my favorite hobby, I hope Epic gets crushed by Apple in court. For the sake of mobile developers, I hope EU courts forces Apple to make some pro-developer changes.
For the sake of my favorite hobby, I hope Epic gets crushed by Apple in court. For the sake of mobile developers, I hope EU courts forces Apple to make some pro-developer changes.
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a motion for injunction is different than the original case and honestly has a very good chance of being granted. odd that this lawyer doesn't make note or specify that this is different as all epic needs to do to get it granted is prove they meet the requirements for the injunction.
if apple wins, better expect sideloading on android to disappear within the week
if the actions that resulted in the motion for injunction are seen by the judge as especially harsh epic would have even lighter requirements to meet to get it granted.
why would the operator of a walled garden being given full rights to that walled garden and precedent being set that banning other stores or purchase methods from your software/hardware platform be a good thing for games? i get the hate for epic here but to be rooting for the company wanting stricter anti-competitive measures to be allowed is mindboggling to me.
if apple wins, better expect sideloading on android to disappear within the week
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Because Epic has demonstrated that they’re not worth the benefit of the doubt. It is not that they don’t like the rules, they just want to be the ones reaping the rewards of them.
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okay and...why does epic being bad elsewhere mean anything? this ruling would affect far more than epic as far as appstores and payment methods on iphone and walled gardens. i agree with epic on this. apple shouldn't have a monopoly on who is allowed to operate stores on hardware owned by regular consumers. that doesn't mean i agree with epic as far as tactics or other outside issues.
its very much a situation like this lol
clickhole.com
this is me to tim sweeny right now
its very much a situation like this lol
Heartbreaking: The Worst Person You Know Just Made A Great Point
A heartbreaking story is currently unfolding that’s sure to have devastating ramifications for years to come. Just moments ago, without any warning, the worst person…
clickhole.com
this is me to tim sweeny right now
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