|OT| Epic vs Apple/Google - Battle of the Tims

Alextended

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Epic is just spewing bs to get more money, I'm not gonna side with them because they tweet preachy when they basically just wanna become the first/most used "other" store on iOS (or even within app store, an even more absurd proposition) rather than give anyone the opportunity to make such a thing (which they probably already have ready to go live the moment it's allowed) as they'd still use the same anti competitive/shit practices they're known for against everybody else and the only thing they dislike is that the platform holders who invested in basically creating and then satisfying whole new markets they now want to profit from, have an advantage over them, because Tim can't stand not getting all the money and power. He's the Trump of gaming starting his campaign with sweet talking everybody and their problems but shitting on everybody just the same (except those he can lord over and benefit from for some pennies). Just like they can have their own store/launch games outside the play store on Android yet they still whine and want to be on the actual play store with special treatment/no fees (now pretending for all when clearly they'd have taken the deal to be just for them as they tried at first), just like they bash Steam and other platforms on PC with stupid arguments and practices (or ignore they exist and their business hurts them even though they actually adhere to the ideals Epic falsely claims).

If you don't want walled gardens and closed ecosystems, don't buy an i platform (or a Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, whatever console, which they've yet to attack, but will clearly do if they have their way here), there are plenty alternatives and Apple never marketed i stuff as open, they didn't fool you. Apple built it, in the way it is what they want and it is successful so basically it is as the people wanted it to be compared to other platforms that didn't attract them, so they benefit from it, why should anyone suddenly gain more when they didn't do the legwork Apple did to reach that level of market share and profits? I just don't buy Apple products, just like Epic can simply publish on and support other platforms if they don't like Apple's rules but they still whine on all those other platforms anyway because it's never enough, they always wanna leech more. If anyone, or rather Epic, can just say oh no, you became too successful, now we must rip your own damn platform away from your hands so we can make more money and use it as we, not you, see fit, why the fuck should all those companies make the stuff they're known for to begin with and not just develop PC software and parts, not platforms, if it's inevitable that someone will want all their money and power?

Who the f thinks it's a good idea to proudly break contractual agreements with millions of dollars involved just because you want to renegotiate terms and who the f thinks that if that goes badly not just for them but also everybody who uses their stuff on iOS it's enough to say "it's not nice devs are harmed too" to claim Apple simply shouldn't protect their business against intentional abusers rather than wish for Epic to step back from breaking their contracts and resolve this differently? It was their obligation to keep providing support and updates for UE to their iOS customers, not Apple's, and they intentionally screwed that up.
 
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Phoenix RISING

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I stick my 'stick' out for Epic on this one...... yup.

I mean at this point even the lawyers are probably pissed.
I could not imagine being on Epic's legal team right now I would have taken up alcoholism given the bomb that The Verge dropped now.

apple making an excellent argument. let's open up all those devices too!
I know you're being half funny, half serious, but I just want to make sure that we both understand that what Apple is doing here is saying that to do what Epic is asking of them means that any company would be entitled to do the same.


Sweeney's defense of his moneyhatting is being used against him by Apple.

Speaking of that Verge megaton story, yes.

Have yall ever seen the VP of a trillion dollar company ROAST another CEO like this? EVER????
 
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warp_

warp_

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I know you're being half funny, half serious, but I just want to make sure that we both understand that what Apple is doing here is saying that to do what Epic is asking of them means that any company would be entitled to do the same.
yes i understand it. also i am in full support of it happening.

however i also don't think the console as a monopoly argument has as much merit because there are more competitors in the space and also they are not general computing devices.
 

Phoenix RISING

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yes i understand it. also i am in full support of it happening.

however i also don't think the console as a monopoly argument has as much merit because there are more competitors in the space and also they are not general computing devices.
Understood.

In that regard, I still stand by my philosophy of "build your own."

For some reason Netflix comes to mind. They managed to knock Blockbuster off its pedestal because they had a great idea and executed. We think of Netflix as streaming, but that came after they were physically mailing movies. That's still an option, btw. Blockbuster tried it but couldn't sustain it, and that's why they died.

That's what EGS should be doing to Steam, but they're bad at it. Clearly, exclusives are not the answer.

Remember Windows Phone? Blackberries? Those companies just couldn't compete and innovate the way that Apple and Google have with their stuff. To come along and tell them that they are too good at what they do seems contrary to all those ideals about competition and free enterprise that the Libertarians and anti-regulation republicans champion.
 
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warp_

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however it's the exact reason that anti trust regulations exist, to stop monopolies or duopolies from abusing their immense power to stifle competition.

this doesn't apply to epic specifically but actions like blocking stadia, xcloud, and geforce now because they compete with apple's services, google threatening oneplus and making deals with lg to exclude competitors. apple pulling this nonsense with the wordpress app, and other situations are all big problems that need to be addressed.
 
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warp_

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i gave you multiple examples above of direct anti competitive and monoplistic behavior so we don't really need to treat this as a theoretical problem that may happen one day. more interested in discussing what is happening now than a theoretical future.
 

Alextended

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Plenty examples of Epic being shitty too as of today, no reason to stan them for anything, not doing that doesn't mean stanning apple in those cases either.

Though I have to say there seems to be plenty more competition in PC/phone/tablet space than consoles and most consoles do plenty more than games.
 
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warp_

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doing more than games does not make a console a general computing device in the way phones and tablets are these days. either way that was simply idle speculation on my part.
 

Swenhir

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I apologize but even after reading through the last few days' posts, I'm not really sure what we're debating anymore.

Is there more to do beside enjoying the two equally delightful parties involved getting at each other?
 
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Alextended

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To speculate who wins I guess. Epic's case seems super weak if not nonexistent, I think they're going to go down hard (but continue to play hero on twitter).

Hopefully their shittyness doesn't set a precedent that makes it harder for iOS/Apple to get better when/if someone actually presents a solid/sound case.
 
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warp_

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I apologize but even after reading through the last few days' posts, I'm not really sure what we're debating anymore.

Is there more to do beside enjoying the two equally delightful parties involved getting at each other?
a mud wrestling match is scheduled for next tuesday between the tims. can't wait!
 

Phoenix RISING

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Plenty examples of Epic being shitty too as of today, no reason to stan them for anything, not doing that doesn't mean stanning apple in those cases either.

Though I have to say there seems to be plenty more competition in PC/phone/tablet space than consoles and most consoles do plenty more than games.
Speaking of consoles, I stole this from the other place.

 

PC-Patriot

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I seem to remember many many many moons ago that the whole reason digital stores took 30% was to keep them in line with what retailers took. No one wanted to be THAT GUY that tried to undercut retailers and start a ridiculous price war. That is how the 30% for digital stores became "industrial standard".

As for the whole Tim v Tim shit. I am biased I hate Apple and Epic. However Apple do not try and fuck me over as a PC gamer but Epic does, So with that in mind I hope Apple wipes the fucking floor with that smug arsehole Tim Sweeney.
 

Phoenix RISING

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I seem to remember many many many moons ago that the whole reason digital stores took 30% was to keep them in line with what retailers took. No one wanted to be THAT GUY that tried to undercut retailers and start a ridiculous price war. That is how the 30% for digital stores became "industrial standard".

As for the whole Tim v Tim shit. I am biased I hate Apple and Epic. However Apple do not try and fuck me over as a PC gamer but Epic does, So with that in mind I hope Apple wipes the fucking floor with that smug arsehole Tim Sweeney.
IDK about "nobody wanted to be THAT GUY," because Bezos certainly is.

I immediately stopped giving a frick about the industry 30% when brand new digital download games stayed at $60 like physical. Okay, yall gave me ZERO incentive to buy from you directly? K I'll keep doing what I do.
 
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Ge0force

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As for the whole Tim v Tim shit. I am biased I hate Apple and Epic. However Apple do not try and fuck me over as a PC gamer but Epic does, So with that in mind I hope Apple wipes the fucking floor with that smug arsehole Tim Sweeney.
That's how I feel as well. Apple is terrible but they are very easy to ignore. Meanwhile Epic is pushing my passion in a direction I strongly dislike.

I hope Apple crushes them in court, and that Fortnites absence on mobile platforms gives other games like Fall Guys the chance to become the next new hype.
 

C-Dub

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That's how I feel as well. Apple is terrible but they are very easy to ignore. Meanwhile Epic is pushing my passion in a direction I strongly dislike.

I hope Apple crushes them in court, and that Fortnites absence on mobile platforms gives other games like Fall Guys the chance to become the next new hype.
This is largely how I feel. I ditched Apple almost a year ago and since then I've not cared what they do.

I feel like the bigger blow to Epic, than Fortnite being pulled from mobile, is the Unreal Engine taking the hit. I still maintain that Epic didn't seriously entertain the idea that Apple would go scorched earth on all Epic products and services, thinking they could weaponise their very young Fortnite audience against Apple and force them to change tack via the court of public opinion without any blowback on their other products. I know some people say their legal counsel would've advised them of this, but Epic's actions right now are fucking insane, so either they're ignoring their legal counsel or their legal advice is garbage.

The way I see it right now, Tim Sweeney probably feels like he's playing 4D chess when in reality he's just playing slip n slide.

Ultimately, while Apple are going to get scorn poured on them for pulling Epic's access to all Apple development tools, I hope ultimately developers hold Epic responsible, because this is clearly their fault. There is a way to go about having a disagreement, even if that passionate disagreement causes litigation. If I were planning a development roadmap for the next 18-48 months, why would I want to take a gamble on Unreal Engine and Epic burning yet another bridge, this time with one of my target platform holders?

Obviously I'd love to see Fortnite fade into irrelevence as soon as possible, but Epic has a lot of respect from developers for the things they've done with Unreal Engine. I hope these pathetic and childish actions, and the uncertainty it creates in its wake, leaves that reputation in tatters. I feel that's the only way Epic's really going to eat shit at this point as no amount of consumer boycotts is going to kill their engine business.
 
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warp_

warp_

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sounds like you're making epic's injunction motion case for them

both companies share fault in the pulling of the developer license but apple is the one directly causing the harm here. the mobile devs i know are definitely side-eyeing apple over this more than epic, though of course they don't speak for the entire industry.

on the bright side it won't affect development on mac much (the power of a non-closed platform folks!) but it certainly isn't good for any ios developer making games, medical apps, or anything else using ue for now.

edit: i should add that the side-eye to apple is very much based on them being so tired of apple changing the rules and procedures and messing with them constantly. they say play store and google are much easier to work with compared to apple.
 
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also just so it's clear ms isn't making any argument on the initial suit, just arguing in favor of the ue tools staying updated and available for ios devs.
 

Monooboe

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Something I've been thinking, just how damaged reputation Epic has now. Why would anyone want to be in business with them? Seeing how willing they are to climb over business partners to get ahead. Its like in dating, if your date is shit talking their ex, you know they are going to do the same to you at some point.
 

Alexandros

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Something I've been thinking, just how damaged reputation Epic has now. Why would anyone want to be in business with them? Seeing how willing they are to climb over business partners to get ahead. Its like in dating, if your date is shit talking their ex, you know they are going to do the same to you at some point.
I think a big fat sack of money will overcome any reservations. But hey, I'll be happy to see Epic piss even more money into the wind.
 
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i dunno, app developers in general (not just games apps) aren't exactly pleased with apple and haven't been for a while. i'd lean more on the side of them being happy someone with enough money is taking on apple over issues that affect all of them.
 
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PC-Patriot

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I think one of the things that is bugging me about this whole thing and says to me that Epic are epic cunts is the blatant disregard for the ToS. Now yes I know ToS have no legal foundation blah blah won't stand up in court blah blah. However as ordinary users we all observe these ToS no matter how outrageous the terms are and if we break them we lose access to shit we paid money for. God help us if we go on a forum and complain we get told "well fucker it is your own fault you should have stuck to the rules".

Now here is Epic blatantly breaking several of Apples ToS but everyone is going "oh brave Epic fighting the good fight". NO if I an ordinary person have to observe the Terms of Service from companies like Microsoft, Apple, Google and Epic then I expect these fuckers to do the same. Iif they don't then I expect them to receive the same kind of admonishments I would. Now Epic can fight these unjust ToS's if they want but till they win they have an obligation to observe the ToS like we damn well have to and if we don't want to obey the ToS then we don't get to use the software or services
 
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Yaska

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MS is just playing along, most likely. It's not like Microsoft is releasing many games using Unreal Engine on OS X anytime soon. MS's interest lies in getting the xcloud app approved.

Again, smart move from Epic would be to just concede and remove their payment option from iOS version until the trial is over. They will do it, but we'll find out more tomorrow once the TRO is processed in the court.
 
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Dandy

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In this MS basically says that UE is critical to the industry so Epic should get to keep their developer account... But the solution is quite easy: Epic could revert their PR stunt "defiance of the appstore monopoly" until the courts rule on their antitrust case. Instead, they want to use the developers caught in the middle of this as hostages, and Microsoft is more than happy to prop them up.
 

Alextended

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So why doesn't MS let all devs skip the fees on the Xbox (and MS I guess) store if they wanna "side with Epic" on this as people say?

That'd be nice PR (and still not be a reason any other company has to behave like MS in how they run their own business of course).
 
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gabbo

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So why doesn't MS let all devs skip the fees on the Xbox (and MS I guess) store if they wanna "side with Epic" on this as people say?

That'd be nice PR (and still not be a reason any other company has to behave like MS in how they run their own business of course).
I don't think MS is trying to throw their hat in with Epic completely, I'm sure any shot they can take at Apple and come out mostly unscathed is a plus to them.
 

Alextended

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Well of course they aren't putting their money where their mouth is, just jumping on a bandwagon to gain rep, that's my point. Also they're dumb if they don't wanna do this since if Epic does win (they won't) they'll obviously demand the same from all services and good luck to them to present compelling evidence with arbitrary standards like but but but our console is a console not a general computing device (and they ask fees on their computing OS store anyway).
 

Copons

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Lol fucking Apple eventually biting me in the ass 😅

I know it's not related to Epic, but just wanted to give a brief update about this, as the issue got resolved.

WordPress is an open source software.
Automattic (where I work) is a company run by the creator of WP, which among other things offers a "commercial" version of WP (you can think of it as a hosting service selling WP-optimized sites, called confusingly enough "WordPress.com".

We are also the main maintainers of the (open source) WP mobile apps, which can be used to manage any WP site.
Given our role, we were granted the ability to add some WP.com-specific features to the apps. Basically, if you have a WP.com site the app acknowledges it by, for example, showing which plan you're subscribed to (e.g. Free, Premium, etc.).
There are no IAP in the app, not even related to WP.com, not even links to external payments, etc.

But... the app contains also notifications, and some WP.com notifications might prompt you to subscribe to a plan, linking to a payment page which opens up in the in-app web view.
We never really gave much thought about this, as we usually work on this notifications in the web version of WP.com, so it's not like those are app-specific notifications.

This was indeed correctly flagged by Apple, which took down the WP app, asking us to add IAP for those plans.

While technically correct because of our conflict of interest as app maintainers and running a commercial product, we don't have control over all notifications.
Say you have a (non WP.com) site added to the WP app, and that site (e.g. through a plugin installed there) sends you a notification about some paid upgrades.
What are we supposed to do? Add IAP for those as well? It's just not possible.

Anyway, we (I think? I don't work on the mobile apps) did something to prevent those links to open in-app, Apple apologized and restored the app in the store.

Some (personally) interesting takeaways:

  • Apple only really reviewed their stance because our CEO went public (after Apple said the takedown was final). Smaller companies don't have the same luxury.
  • Our CEO acknowledged the "sanctity of licenses", meaning that we signed a contract -> we were found in violation -> it's our fault, and our responsibility to fix it.
  • As far as I understand, while an app is removed from the store for some terms violation, it's still possible to update it for major issues and whatnot. Apparently this was not possible for the WP app. I don't know why, but we were prevented to push updates (unless we fixed the violation first) for almost 1 month. It's kinda weird, considering it was in our rights? (Don't quote me on this though, I might be missing some context.)
 
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warp_

warp_

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I don't think MS is trying to throw their hat in with Epic completely, I'm sure any shot they can take at Apple and come out mostly unscathed is a plus to them.
correct, they are just submitting written testimony in favor of keeping ue tools available for developers on ios. they have a specific interest in this as they have a ue game on the appstore (and probably have plans to release more in the future). it's not really much deeper than that and definitely isn't "siding with epic" or "gaining rep" lol

in fact it's specifically a limited statement of support only mentioning keeping the ue tools available and not reinstating fortnite to the appstore.
 
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Alextended

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Yeah it's not about gaining rep, that's why it's on twitter (by themselves and not somebody's sensational reporting of an official statement filed) "lol". Companies and reps just have no self control and have to post everything they do on social media, like what they had for lunch and how big the dump they just took was.

It's twitter, "homie", social media, where they engage fans, get followers, get likes, do marketing, pretend to care for (or even be like) the little guy or consumer, all that good stuff. It's not the submitted statement itself (and even if the statement would have any effect whatsoever in proceedings, then the tweet about it most certainly would not, so no, it's not standard/natural procedure), but nice condescending smilies and edits, though I'm not the "homie" who so proudly proclaimed I'm shilling for a known shit company and its acts because, with merit or not, their case at one point might just about benefit me in some way.
 
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warp_

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it's public testimony homie :face-with-rolling-eyes:

can't imagine a games development and publishing branch of a company wanting to issue a public statement regarding development tools that they use on a platform they publish on. must be clout chasing 😆
 
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warp_

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heck they have at least one current project on the app store now, forza street. gears pop may also be ue but i'm not sure.
 
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Alexandros

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I find the discourse surrounding the Epic vs Apple legal battle to be very strange. First of all, antitrust probes against several tech companies have already begun in both the US and the EU. Ordinary people like us taking the side of either Epic or Google is going to have precisely zero effect on the court or regulatory ruling. It's not like the EGS situation where ordinary people raising awareness and voting with their wallets can have a direct and tangible effect, this has been taken to court so whatever any of us think is irrelevant.

This is why most people are saying "fuck them both, let them fight". The only thing we can do is sit back and watch the outcome. I won't root for Apple because I'm a fan of open systems and I won't root for Epic because I am convinced that Tim Sweeney would be just as bad as Apple if he was in the same position of power. Thankfully I don't have to choose between two shit companies since the courts and the regulators will make that decision.
 
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warp_

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though I'm not the "homie" who so proudly proclaimed I'm shilling for a known shit company and its acts because, with merit or not, their case at one point might just about benefit me in some way.
remember when it was said people were being nice and respectful talking about this? now it's "shills" and lying about things i've posted because i don't blindly hate epic 100% of the time and have a disagreeing opinion. simply lovely.

please point out where i proudly proclaim i'm a "shill" for epic's acts outside of this case or even support their circus tactics relating to the case. i'd love to see it.
 

TioChuck

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So apparently Apple and Epic will be in court today to decide if Epic's Apple Dev account will be terminated or not, anyone has the details?
 
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the hearing starts in about 45 mins. not sure if it is being covered anywhere but probably won't be very exciting.
 

Alexandros

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remember when it was said people were being nice and respectful talking about this? now it's "shills" and lying about things i've posted because i don't blindly hate epic 100% of the time and have a disagreeing opinion. simply lovely.

please point out where i proudly proclaim i'm a "shill" for epic's acts outside of this case or even support their circus tactics relating to the case. i'd love to see it.
Come on guys, there is no need for any tension, we are all on the same side here, the customer side. It's quite possible to be hopeful for a specific goal while disliking the company pushing for it and I think that this applies to both Apple and Epic. The ideal outcome is one where they both lose, which is in fact possible.