Community MetaSteam | August 2020 - Come Fly With Me

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warp_ said:
the book comparison is honestly the most on point even if not intended, probably. i don't buy books day one as a hardcover. they are hella expensive and not worth it to me. if i get a book i wait for the cheaper paperback and read other books i own until the cheaper release hits.
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But that's the whole problem in the gaming industry. Those f* like to work together. What if hardcovers is all they are willing to sell in the future?
Because you absolutely know that Ubi, Sony, Microsoft and EA will follow the lead and start selling games for 80€ as well. It's just a matter of time.

You'll still reply with:"You can still wait a month or two,"
I agree, that is a valid strategy. But the amount of pressure they are able to invoke on a market that should be easy to regulate by demand and supply (though it's more like demand in this digital age) by working together is disgusting and boycotting has barely a chance to work.

People will buy 80€ CoD normal, peasant edition because they want to spent time with their friends playing. There is a lot of pressure this industry is able to leverage here. It is borderline unfair.
 
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"people want to play with their friends" is not pressure the industry is applying.
 
warp_ said:
i am deriding people for thinking they have a right to buy a video game day one at the price they want and get that price forever, yes. buying day one is not something you need to do, that is a luxury that you should decide for yourself if you want.
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Then I'm sorry to say that you are being disrespectful and this is wrong of you. You do not get to judge people like this. You are also misrepresenting the point, they want the industry standard not to rise. Not a free lunch.

Throwing the term "luxury" in is really not necessary nor technically correct, and it is a little abrasive for the people whose reasonable wishes you are deriding. A little more empathy wouldn't go amiss to be honest.

I am with you in that buying day one is often a counter-productive affair, and one that encourages a variety of toxic behaviors in this industry. But it's also something that's very understandable and reasonable when the product has been well-reviewed and the company respectable for instance. It's not something you can pass wholesale judgment on as you are doing.

Not to mention the fact that an increase of the industry standard price will screw everything, no matter the time of purchase, so that day one conversation isn't the be all of that subject.
 
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so play something else with your friends? there's millions of games out there in the world, some of which your friends and you already own.

i can only imagine some of you protesting outside of starbucks cause "coffee should only cost $1" when there's plenty of other places to get coffee and you probably have coffee beans at home too. :LOL:

i have plenty of empathy for situations that deserve it. not being able to pay the price you want for your toys and needing to wait to get that exact one isn't one of those situations. sorry.

people make buying decisions on various products every day. i suggest doing that as it will be the most effective message one way or the other.
 
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warp_ said:
i can only imagine some of you protesting outside of starbucks cause "coffee should only cost $1" when there's plenty of other places to get coffee and you probably have coffee beans at home too. :LOL:
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That's completely misrepresenting the point. We simply do not want the baseline of the prices to increase, which affects every sale going forward.
 
I mean, Microsoft approach for next-gen is to allow as many people as possible to play games, not just rich people or the middle class.
 
Francis W.M. said:
In a society that tries to push the notion that the more spare money you have to purchase useless shit you like, the happier and better person you are, I really cannot understand why people can't see the problem with raising prices for games. You don't buy into that idea? Fine, I'm happy for you, but maybe try to look beyond your own personal situation? The fact is that this shitty notion has crawled into the mind of the vast majority of people and having to renounce getting something they used to be able to afford is going to make a lot of people more miserable because they'll feel part of a lesser group in society (back to the notion 'the more shit you buy, the better you are as a human being'). Richer folks will still be able to enjoy a game on day one, just like you did up until a few months ago, you'll suddenly won't anymore and you'll be left out, with obvious repercussions on your mental health.
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I mainly don't see too big a problem because most of the actually great games were in the past. I'm not even joking when I say that if I forced myself to play a lot of the newest CoD or Destiny or something, and I paid $70 for the game, then another $40 for an expansion. Then stressing about earning weapons in their limited window of availability. Trudging through the boring gameplay. Then $50 for the paid DLC, then another $40 for the DLC, then they REMOVED MY ABILITY TO PLAY THE FIRST $110 WORTH OF PURCHASES so they could sell me the following $100 expansion. Well, that'd cause MORE mental health problems for fucking sure, as well as making me fucking enraged just thinking about it.

No, anything that hurts AAA games is great for gaming and great for humanity as a whole.



Oh, do want to note one thing that concerns me. As we reach the limitations of silicon components, I'm worried that hardware prices will just keep increasing until they're really out of price range for most people. I don't know how they'll manage software costs with a shrinking player base, but cloud gaming is a real potential threat as time goes on. It'll be quotaed cloud gaming where you don't get any choice of what you do with your games, games will regularly be cycled out so you can't play them again.
 
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warp_ said:
no for some reason it's important to pretend game pass is bad when talking about game prices
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Because Gamepass is a subscription, thus a different business model and so irrelevant to this discussion I can't really summon the energy to explain why it's only circumstancially good value.
 
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There are many systems here at play warp_ , I'm a bit surprised how fast you are putting the blame on the consumer side here.
And true, maybe I am too reliant and eager to jump on this "evil industry".

But as I see it; there are many more factors here. Nostalgia, bonding, the excitement of diving into your favorite franchise together. It's not as easy as saying: Let's not play CoD:Squeal CXVIII this year, it's just a stupid game.

Once people are invested into something, there is additional leverage that can be used in unfair ways.

About reading books: I also mainly bought paperbacks. But for a couple exceptions: Those big, fantasy series that took years to come out like Wheel of Time, song of ice and fire, Enwor (I don't expect anybody to know that one lol).

Are you telling me you wouldn't make an exception and buy a sequel or continuation of a story in hardcover you really love? You'd really be willing to wait another six months?
 
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game pass is a great way to consume entertainment cheaply with friends that is accessible at multiple price point levels. if you don't like it for xyz reason, that's on you, much like its on you for wanting to buy a game day one. it's still a great option.
 
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warp_ said:
no for some reason it's important to pretend game pass is bad when talking about game prices
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In an ideal world, it'd be a great incentive. My cynical views tell me it's just the next step in even bigger reduction of player's control over games. People being able to play whatever they want and whenever they want works against publishers, so it makes sense they'd want to kill that and force you to play only what they feed you at the time.
 
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It's cheap because they are currently in the loss leader phase, where the goal isn't to extract maximum profit but to establish a captive audience.
The more successful it is, the more quickly that phase will end.

Edit: I wouldn't even call this a particularly cynical view, just a realistic one based on ample past evidence of company behaviour.
 
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ISee said:
Are you telling me you wouldn't make an exception and buy a sequel or continuation of a story in hardcover you really love? You'd really be willing to wait another six months?
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i would and i have. 90% of the time i am not buying a $60 game but sometimes an exception is made. to me that is a luxury to get a game day one or a book day one or spending extra on whatever.

most times i don't see products as worth that extra monetary investment. a day one adopter pays a day one tax.
 
Swenhir said:
We simply do not want the baseline of the prices to increase, which affects every sale going forward.
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I don't think that would happen.

Increasing the price of CoD from 60€ to 70€ should not impact much the number of copies sold, because the customers are CoD players, just like there are Dota2 players or Fortnite players who play their one-game all the time.

If indie games are sold for 30€-40€ instead of 10€-20€, customers won't follow, at least, I know I would not. I made an exception for Disco Elysium, because I had been waiting for this game for years. Most of my other purchases are in the 10€-20€ range, and I would massively change my purchase habits if every game was more expensive.
 
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Durante said:
It's cheap because they are currently in the loss leader phase, where the goal isn't to extract maximum profit but to establish a captive audience.
The more successful it is, the more quickly that phase will end.
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It's like people never witnessed any new business open in their neighborhood. I remember a doughnut store opening near me. At first they sold amazing doughnuts for 2.50 PLN and had massive queues. Now they're selling medicore ones for 4.50 PLN. That was all in a span of a few months.
 
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warp_ said:
game pass is a great way to consume entertainment cheaply with friends that is accessible at multiple price point levels. if you don't like it for xyz reason, that's on you, much like its on you for wanting to buy a game day one. it's still a great option.
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That's such a disturbing line of thinking. "If you don't like being punched in the mouth, that's on you". I usually hear it in victim-blaming cults.

GamePass is good value :
  • If they keep on adding games every month that are somehow always relevant and never miss one that you'd like
  • If the pricing remains so low
  • If at least one game you would have bought on sale is added every month that you won't ever play again.
In any other circumstances it's a terrible deal because :
  • You are paying rent for your games library
  • You have to use the objectively single worst software delivery platform in the industry
  • You have to contend to UWP encrypted games more often than not that have so many downsides it's not even funny
  • You are assuming the price won't rise too, which changes the equation completely.
GamePass is also irrelevant to the discussion of the baseline pricing for games that you can keep forever as opposed to a subscription. In order to get that capability, you need to pay orders of magnitudes more than the normal price of the game and the value gain there depends on your regular investments as well as your personal comfort in trusting Microsoft not to find a way to screw you over down the line, which they wrote the book about.
 
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Wok said:
I don't think that would happen. Increasing the price of CoD from 60€ to 70€ should not impact much the number of copies sold, because the customers are CoD players, just like there are Dota2 players or Fortnite players who play their one-game all the time. If indie games are sold for 30€-40€ instead of 10€-20€, these customers won't follow, at least, I know I would not.
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Yeah, I agree that those "event" type games have a very different kind of price flexibility compared to more independent games (or even "A" to "B" games primarily played by people who buy a lot of games a year).
 
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Durante said:
It's cheap because they are currently in the loss leader phase, where the goal isn't to extract maximum profit but to establish a captive audience.
The more successful it is, the more quickly that phase will end.
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Definetly. Already now we know that game pass will increase in price once the beta phase is over whenever that will be and with more publishers increasing the price of their games on consoles and the more subs game pass will get from people, MS will increase the price.

Netflix has increased the price many times.
 
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so we're calling games essential items and game pass a victim blaming cult. 😆😆😆

like i said: no one is requiring you to like it. that doesn't make it not an option. never said the price wouldn't rise. i said its a good deal.
 
Wok said:
I don't think that would happen.

Increasing the price of CoD from 60€ to 70€ should not impact much the number of copies sold, because the customers are CoD players, just like there are Dota2 players or Fortnite players who play their one-game all the time.

If indie games are sold for 30€-40€ instead of 10€-20€, customers won't follow, at least, I know I would not. I made an exception for Disco Elysium, because I have been waiting for this game for years. Most of my other purchases are in the 10€-20€ range, and I would massively change my purchase habits if every game was more expensive.
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I wish I shared your view, and if that was the case then I'd be very happy to shut up and speak about anime and how Ghost in the Shell is arguably more impactful than Akira.

I'm not sure that you are right regarding indie games. Not when the argument of "the base price has risen, why is the gulf between us so wide now?" is going to go through their heads.
 
fantomena said:
Definetly. Already now we know that game pass will increase in price once the beta phase is over whenever that will be and with more publishers increasing the price of their games on consoles and the more subs game pass will get from people, MS will increase the price.

Netflix has increased the price many times.
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Yeah, I'll never argue that gamepass isn't a good deal right now (if you don't run into the more obnoxious winstore/UWP stuff), it is.

I just think it's incredibly naive to assume it will stay such a good deal, or to entrust the future of your hobby to a rental system where it's not you making the decisions on which games to get or keep. I think that's problematic from both a consumer and a producer (developer) perspective, actually.
 
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warp_ said:
so we're calling games essential items and game pass a victim blaming cult. 😆😆😆

like i said: no one is requiring you to like it. that doesn't make it not an option. never said the price wouldn't rise. i said its a good deal.
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Sure, it's a great deal. Just like Photoshop switching to subscription was a great deal because it was cheaper than getting the expensive one-time license. Now your only option is to subscribe since one-time purchase option is gone and there's nothing stopping them from increasing the sub price all the time. Everyone played into their scheme.
 
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warp_ said:
so we're calling games essential items and game pass a victim blaming cult. 😆😆😆

like i said: no one is requiring you to like it. that doesn't make it not an option. never said the price wouldn't rise. i said its a good deal.
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I usually try to fight things I don't like, especially if I feel it brings some sort of injustice with it.

Sadly many people just roll over and accept it.
 
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warp_ said:
so we're calling games essential items and game pass a victim blaming cult. 😆😆😆

like i said: no one is requiring you to like it. that doesn't make it not an option. never said the price wouldn't rise. i said its a good deal.
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Not true. You said :
if you don't like it for xyz reason, that's on you
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Hence my reply, which I feel is very applicable for that line of reasoning.

I'll leave you alone now, I don't think you'll listen to any argument against your worldview.
 
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Durante said:
It's cheap because they are currently in the loss leader phase, where the goal isn't to extract maximum profit but to establish a captive audience.
The more successful it is, the more quickly that phase will end.

Edit: I wouldn't even call this a particularly cynical view, just a realistic one based on ample past evidence of company behaviour.
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Yep.
I'm very curious to see how they'll turn it around when they have enough subscribbers. The most simple actions are to increase the sub price and/or reduce the number of games available (or create different tiers of the subscription, more expensive = more games), but I suspect they might have some more nefarious ideas as these are too radical and the general audience will notice and revolt against them instantly.
 
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warp_ said:
like i said: no one is requiring you to like it. that doesn't make it not an option. never said the price wouldn't rise. i said its a good deal.
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So if you agree that it is likely only to be such a good deal currently, and is only applicable for a subset of games and circumstances, then you should also understand why people are hesistant to consider it a meaningful argument in a discussion of general game pricing (which affects everything presumably forever, since those "industry-standard" price points are unlikely to ever go down).
 
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fantomena said:
I usually try to fight things I don't like, especially if I feel it brings some sort of injustice with it.

Sadly many people just roll over and accept it.
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go for it, who's stopping you? i'll be over here playing games on game pass and never paying more than $40 for a computer game aka not changing my behavior or losing my mind over a $10 price increase that only affects fomo.
Durante said:
So if you agree that it is likely only to be such a good deal currently, and is only applicable for a subset of games and circumstances, then you should also understand why people are hesistant to consider it a meaningful argument in a discussion of general game pricing (which affects everything presumably forever, since those "industry-standard" price points are unlikely to ever go down).
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sure, i'll accept that if the other side will accept that it is useful to that subset of circumstances and games rather than a deriding "bbbbbbut game pass" if a price for anything ever is brought up. also if that side will accept that "dude who needs to get aaa game day one" is also a subset of the general population.

it's all various pieces of the pie that care about different things. completely dismissing game pass when talking about games and pricing is ridiculous.
 
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warp_ said:
go for it, who's stopping you? i'll be over here playing games on game pass and never paying more than $40 for a computer game.
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My main reason for not using game pass is that I don't like renting games, the case that the store backend sucks and lack of cheevos and playtime tracking in many games and lack of control over files is also a big thing for me, but the main reason is for me ownership.

I like playing games at my own pace so I would rather buy to own a game so I can play the game in 3 years rather than stressing over the game leaving the service.

It's happening right now with The Touryst and I hate it. The game is not on Steam, only on MS Store currently. Im not liking the game that much so far, but I don't wanna buy it off the WinStore for ownership, so Im effectively pushing myself through a game Im not really liking much. I wish I could stop trying, but Im unable to stop trying right now and I don't know why.

Im not in the mood for The Touryst right now, but I don't know how long it will stay on the service and that is stressing me out.
 
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xxr said:
Then why say anything at all? :thinking-blob:
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because i was responding to people quoting me. my original reply pages back was essentially "cool i'll wait longer to buy games" which turned into this big blowup.

apologies if you don't like my take on this discussion i guess.
 
when it comes to games all i am saying is there are options. you don't have to like all of them or participate but they exist.

buying day one
buying in a bundle
waiting for a price drop
subscription services
pirating
boycotting for x reason

however it just seems there's a gulf where i don't consider games more than luxury items or toys and others see them as more than that. that's fair and maybe its the reason we won't ever see eye to eye.

however in the end they are products. i've seen prices on every prodcut go up in my life and in the end it's a buying choice each person has to make. you can cry and post on forums and go on twitter or whatever but the price of the mcd burger isn't going back down and neither is cod. so then its time to make the choice on what to do next and it's going to be one of the options above.

or just play something else.

edit: i should add that i don't approve of prices always going up but it is what it is.
 
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ISee said:
I'd go even further and add that in a world that is going through a pandemic, where social contacts and activities are limited gaming is more than just a luxury item. We are not machines after all, and need more than air, water, food and shelter to survive. A price increase on an item that is able to help us out to stay sane or relax in this hard times is terrible and should not be put together with real luxury items like jewellery, exotic perfumes and other things.

TVs and basic computers are not allowed to be sold over here when somebody goes bankrupt. They are not declared luxury items, for good reasons. And games aren't luxury as well. They are entertainment and little candles of joy in dark times and everybody has a right to that.

Taking those little candles away from people or making them more unreachable is shitty and deserves a basic level of sympathy and understanding. Something that is often missing in this discussion.
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Fully agreed.
Francis W.M. said:
I have insanely high expectations for this game. I really hope it delivers.
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I will review it and I'll start playing this weekend, so if you have any questions tag me in a few days.
 
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