Community MetaSteam | June 2020 - Month Of The Seal, With Many A Deal, Throw Money With Zeal, The Wallet Will Kneel

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EdwardTivrusky

Good Morning, Weather Hackers!
Dec 8, 2018
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Wait for PS4 get cheaper -> PS4 pro announced -> Wait for PS4 pro to get cheaper -> PS5 announced -> wait for ps5 to get cheaper... :p
It's like PC Hardware. The best time to buy new kit is ALWAYS next week. lol.
There's either a sale or a new piece of kit imminent that can make purchasing a waiting game. Who's going to move first? Me or them?

 

Swenhir

Spaceships!
Apr 18, 2019
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he's apologizing to :timinator:
I'm not behind pretending Sweeney has no bone to pick with the PC between his past statements and his active attempts at appropriating it through exclusivity. However, that video was rather correct when it comes to SSDs and the advantages custom hardware and software affords.

I think that video was a good watch and Linus was very mature about correcting himself instead of digging deeper like many, many have in the past. I wouldn't mock him and I think it's pretty unkind to boil down the video to just that bit about Sweeney.

I also can't wait to see what SSD and mobo makers will come up with to match the kind of perf in latency and throughput consoles are going to be enjoying. I know through experience that this is the one field the PC is lagging behind. Hell, even file systems have drastic inefficiencies as he rightfully pointed out. Being behind the curve in that particular aspect is going to suck for the PC but I have no doubt it's not going to last long.
 

fantomena

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Dec 17, 2018
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As someone who has consoles and PC, but mainly plays on PC, I feel there are two different worlds.

Console-only people are mainly talking about hardware, usually only when a big exclusive is out is when people talk about game(s), but other than that it's mainly hardware. And I see on console subreddits that it's usually the same game being talked about all the time..

PC gamers mainly talk about games and only talk about hardware when they ask questions about building a PC and what to upgrade. I think what makes it differents are the flow of games.

There are so many different games on PC, wherever it's Steam, GOG, Origin, EGS etc. Good and great games release all the time so there's no worry about lack of games. Also a lot of games that are heavily played on PC are games that are either only on PC or ar far superior on PC. It's also the thing that PC players usually don't have to worry about games not coming to PC (even if you don't like EGS, at least the game is on PC). There are so many games that are console exclusive so you need multiple consoles to play them all. Right now Im playing MO Astray (PC and Switch) and on monday Im grabbing Satisfacotry (PC only) and a bit of Deep Rock Galactic (PC and Xbox).

If you are only playing on consoles, there aren't a consistent flow of good and great games being released, there are console exclusivity problems and you can't upgrade your console for better performance when you want.

Of course there are exclusivity problems for PC in regards to EGS and console timed exclusivity (FFVIIR), but at least you only need to have a PC for it, but if you don't have a PC, you need to own multiple consoles if you want as much as possible and you still are far from the PC flow of games.
 
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AHA-Lambda

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Good few hours into Control now, and impressions are broadly positive :)

Big positives for me with it so far have been the setting, the combat, and the storytelling.
The aesthetic the game has is simply great, like a mix between supernatural MC Escher and a high end retro office building, it's excellent.
The storytelling also so far nails both a sense of mystery and tension which fits the setting very well.
Combat wise it's a fairly basic cover shooter with powers, but you do need to be careful as it doesn't take a lot to kill you, plus there's no button for cover so you have to manage your own cover manually, a far more engaging idea than magnetically sticking to a wall.

If there's one thing that is really pulling it down for me though so far, is that the missions are quite lengthy indeed, and the gameplay loop can get rather repetitive. It's the kind of game that I find myself only picking up for a chapter at a time rather than being able to play for much longer.
 

Mivey

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Hey, I'll expand a bit too in the spoilers!

She starts screwing them over in favor of the bracers, first for Arios. Then she works hard to belittle them in the news, to manipulate public opinion.
And then indeed, they work together, and Lloyd is not happy about that but she has intel. Obtained from dubious sources, that she no doubt would be able to use to clean up the mafia, but the news are more important.

And that's a good reflection of modern day: she supports the status quo early on, manipulate the population, then switch to the heroes of the story when it's convenient for her image while still focusing on her news... and her fantasy Pulitzer price.
She's in for herself.
Lying is no biggie in the beginning, she has all the reasons to be frustrated, but her actions are certainly not for the truth. Hell, she gets censored when the news are not palpable to the elites... and had no issues keeping on because her career is at stake. And her paper is very important after all, can't let that close down.

She's a complete hypocrite, like pretty much everyone in this game.
Anything the heroes do is used to make others look good, but they never support them, and will actively try to stop them when they can.
It's the oh-so-topical brand awareness applied to an entire state apparatus. And the press, we all know what's going on with it even under literal fire. Can't cross a line, keep your job, keep it fair and balanced, protect the government.


The point is not that they can't go to the auction, it's that they've been ordered not to, multiple times.
Of course finding KeA is a crime the mafia committed, I'll come to that after.

But if you're a police officer, off duty, against orders, and you go waltzing in a well known den of criminal activity... you'd better know what you do. It's not like they can't just say "we're cops you're all under arrest". They can, they'd be right in general.
However, they're not allowed for a reason that proves correct: there's plenty of ministers and foreign dignitaries doing shady stuff: the Crossbell government do not want them discovered by the public (they love the auction, it brings them plenty of dirty money) and even less hurt.
When they start the shoot out, which is bad for the mafia... but it's the fucking mafia, a lot of VIPs are in danger.

Of course it's a videogame, so they know the important people to begin with and nothing bad happens.
But in a real life situation, waltzing on human trafficking while an investigation was going on when told not to interfere, then shooting your way out while I dunno, a Russian minister is hanging out with the chairman of the CCP's largest shell company... and they both die hit by stray bullets?
Yeah.
Morally, I agree with them.
But they are cops.
Legality and politics are VERY different. On top of blowing up the ongoing investigation, and probably putting the Crossbellian spies in quite a pickle, there's no way they'd get out unscathed by their own government. They'd probably have a mysterious accident falling from the fifteenth floor while discharging their shotguns in their backs.
As far as the foreign countries are concerned, Crossbell cannot be trusted, their police force has gone wild (and later with the drugs... the military too), their citizens and ambassadors are threatened.

This is not a moment where you can say "but we saw human trafficking and it's a crime".

Plus KeA was kidnapped (as far as they understand), that's bad of course.
But all the over activities are fine, as they say, even the Bracers would intervene in front of that. It's a good thing. But that also means that all the rest is okay as long as it doesn't get too well known or... make them lose money I guess?
Racketeering is fine, bribery and arson is whatever, plus I'm suuuure the mafia with unlimited would never kill and kidnap anyone else. We have a legendary assassin in the game, but it's really the supposed kidnapping of one girl that is the thing that they should never do. Nothing really bad happened before.
Riiight.

The police and the Bracers are insane hypocrites. Again.
Crime is a-okay as long as it's doesn't interfere with their activities and their money making schemes. Hell, considering all that happens, Bracers being bodyguards against criminals but doing nothing to crush them, instead focusing on desperate rabble trying to survive... the entire political game smells fishy when you combine modern day culture and fantasy tropes of intercontinental guilds.




The entire segment is absolutely ridiculous and is the main reason why making the subject of the game the fucking cops was a bad idea.
Law and order are completely irrelevant, consequences are hilariously absent in the game.
If they were bracers, that would be fine. Plausible deniability and all.
Cops, absolutely not. If they don't intend to use that element in any other way than "bracers but-not-really and we don't follow orders we're young lol", they should not have. The political impact on the lore is staggering, and would bring Crossbell's destruction.
JRPG tropes are a deal breaker if you want a realistic world.




I like the lore in general, but increasingly less so the modern anime tropes infesting the series.
I like the game (well not the gameplay, combat and backtracking is crap).
Just not at all the heroes, and everything that they did. Because as far as the real world is concerned, that would be Hong Kong giving the CCP the perfect reason to just steam roll them. In the game everything goes on as if it was normal, but after the police and the military going nuts, it's pretty unlikely that "no we didn't want to stop your illegal activities, but there was a green haired kid to save plus a cult drugged our armed forces so it wasn't our fault we're in control now kthx" would be effective.
Shortened, the later part of the game is tremendously stupid and destroys any semblance of political parallels.

There's two very different games at play in Zero (and it gets worse from here).
And it just doesn't work.
Let us just agree to disagree. I don't feel that any of us is really coming closer to an agreement here. I have ultimately a very different read on the characters of this story, on what the word "hypocrite" means, and how to judge various things that have happened over the course of this game. And that's ok. I like where Zero is going with the plot, and how the setting is evolving so far, and looking forward to Ao (which I will play after taking some break).
 

ISee

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Mar 1, 2019
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Good few hours into Control now, and impressions are broadly positive :)

Big positives for me with it so far have been the setting, the combat, and the storytelling.
The aesthetic the game has is simply great, like a mix between supernatural MC Escher and a high end retro office building, it's excellent.
The storytelling also so far nails both a sense of mystery and tension which fits the setting very well.
Combat wise it's a fairly basic cover shooter with powers, but you do need to be careful as it doesn't take a lot to kill you, plus there's no button for cover so you have to manage your own cover manually, a far more engaging idea than magnetically sticking to a wall.

If there's one thing that is really pulling it down for me though so far, is that the missions are quite lengthy indeed, and the gameplay loop can get rather repetitive. It's the kind of game that I find myself only picking up for a chapter at a time rather than being able to play for much longer.
Borrowed it last year and enjoyed the setting as well. It starts very good, but there is this strange drop of after 50-60% of the game with rather boring side missions (not all of them though) and even the main stuff starts feeling a bit dragged out for some time. My tip, mainly concentrate on the main "trip", read the files, watch the videos, listen to the tapes. The game will later try to trap you in a game play loop with randomly generated missions and events that didn't work for me at all.
For combat I didn't use cover at all tbh. Staying mobile and pressing enemies with powers worked better for me, especially as the only way to heal during combat is to pickup stuff that enemies dropped. Later enemies will also be either very mobile or able to swallow a lot of damage (plus some synergies between them).
 
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Firewithin

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Dec 19, 2018
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how does the choice games and DLC work? like i have xcom 2 base but no dlc. is there no way to redeem dlc but still be able to give the base game away?
 

AHA-Lambda

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Borrowed it last year and enjoyed the setting as well. It starts very good, but there is this strange drop of after 50-60% of the game with rather boring side missions (not all of them though) and even the main stuff starts feeling a bit dragged out for some time. My tip, mainly concentrate on the main "trip", read the files, watch the videos, listen to the tapes. The game will later try to trap you in a game play loop with randomly generated missions and events that didn't work for me at all.
For combat I didn't use cover at all tbh. Staying mobile and pressing enemies with powers worked better for me, especially as the only way to heal during combat is to pickup stuff that enemies dropped. Later enemies will also be either very mobile or able to swallow a lot of damage (plus some synergies between them).
Yeah the side missions so far have already been fairly inconsequential and I've just been hit with a bunch of new ones at once now after
Dylan has broken out
, and I was already thinking of skipping them tbh.
 
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low-G

old school cool
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New consoles are definitely not in the same ballpark as PS4 and Xone were when they released, but I'm pretty sure (depending on a situation with Corona) we're going to see a new high-end GPU that will outperform consoles by the end of a year and more affordable stuff by the middle of 2021. CPUs are probably not far behind. The only unknown at this point is SSD and we don't know how much change it'll actually bring, especially in a first year after release.
This. The CPU and GPU power of the new consoles will be surpassed in no time. The SSD, especially the PS5 SSD, is more of an unknown quantity, but even that will be limited to PS5 first party games unless developers want to completely rule out Xbox Series X and PC (assuming it is as magic and groundbreaking as Sony claims).

This is of course in no way downplaying how special the PS5's SSD might be. But I still think in this multiplatform world we will not reap the benefits of it outside of first party games because even if you remove PC from the equation, the Xbox Series X still exists and the SSD on that is more of a bog standard (albeit still very fast) one.

The way I see it is in terms of specs for at least a year after these new consoles release, Xbox One and PS4 will be anchors holding most AAA games back. The high end PC, PS5 and Series X versions of games will have lots of nice new features like ray tracing, 4K resolution, better textures and shorter loading times than the PS4/Xbox One/lower-spec PC and Switch, but they will still be games that release on those lower-spec systems.

After that, chances are PS5 will be the CPU/GPU anchor and Xbox Series X will be the I/O anchor for the vast majority of AAA games. And I don't see a point in the near future (1-2 years) where you can't get a PC SSD that outperforms than the Series X SSD, or a GPU/CPU that outperforms the PS5's to the point that a decent gaming PC is a bottleneck. We see this talk every console generation, and where there is true hardware innovation in the console space the PC manufacturers catch up fairly quickly. Always.

And I say this talking about only AAA games. I think indies and "mid-tier" developers will continue to do what they do; PS4 and Xbox One don't seem to be holding back their vision just yet. And I haven't seen any indie developers really publicly groaning about the nightmare of having to optimise for the current-gen consoles as they did towards the end of PS3/360, which were clearly bottlenecking developers that couldn't afford to optimise in the same way that the AAA developers could (in fact, we've seen a resurgence of the mid-tier games that all but died thanks to how costly PS3/360 development was). With that in mind I wouldn't be surprised if we see many non-AAA PS4 and Xbox One games being released for years to come.

In short, there's nothing to worry about. This is just more "The Future" soothsaying from fanboys. New console releases always raise the minimum specs bar for PC gaming eventually and this go around will be no different. All this talk of PC's past/present/future being fundamentally incapable of ever reaching the godly highs of PS5 is more nonsense in the vein of Saddam Hussein buying all the PS2s to use in his WMD missiles.
I don't know man, I'm no IT specialist, I'm talking out of my own field of expertise here and I understand that there is always a lot of Snake Oil with those console manufacturers, but let's try to be a bit more objective here:

The new AMD CPUs ain't bad anymore. High core count, good IPC, power consumption (and therefore heat generation) is low, especially under 4GHz. Hard to complain about them and if developers decide to really use 8C/16T eventually, for games targeting 30fps, we'll have a big wave of upgrades coming to us.

We know nothing about RDNA 2.0 GPUs. But if the lowest tier RDNA 2.0 will beginn or even exceed RX 5700/XT levels of performance, and developers start to use it again for 1800p-2160p at 30 fps. Than current GPUs might not hold for as long as we'd like them to, depending on the preferred resolutions. The biggest unknown is Ray Tracing performance imo.

Maybe PS5 will use its NVMe drive to circumvent, the relative low amount of shared 16gb of memory between CPU and GPU? Maybe it will allow for new engines and techniques to present data both to CPU and GPU? Maybe levels will be designed completely different?
Because whenever I reach a point in a level, where I have to slowly crawl through a gap, or an elevator takes exceptionally long, or a corridor with two slowly opening doors on each side makes me wait, I'm fully aware that it's there to mask loading times. Maybe levels will be bigger, with less artificial obstacles to mask "loading in"? And we'll either need to upgrade our own system memory to 32GB+ and/or have NVMe ourselves to get no stuttering in gaming in a year or two? Especially as we tend to aim above 30fps..

I don't know, I'm a bit more careful when it comes to those new consoles. They are setting some interesting standards imo.
But with Microsoft releasing their games on PC and Sony appear to try it out. I'm actually not concerned at all. Having to upgrade a gaming PC down the road is normal and I'll maybe end up without the need to buy a PS5 at all.
There's a lot here to unpackage, but when it really comes down to it, there really is a ton of Sony marketing hype. Notice how so few on the other place are talking about the XSX? It's a hype wave, predominantly. We're still talking about the smallest incremental jump of technological capacity in a console generation, ever. NES to SNES was bigger. SNES to PS1. PS1 to PS2. PS2 to PS3. PS3 to PS4... It's not console makers' fault, it's just a definite slowing in microprocessor gains.

I think the inclusion of the raytracing hardware (which I expect to be extremely minimal, yet still integral), the bigger CPU boost (which we must remember is a very downclocked Ryzen 7 3700X), and of course the well designed SSDs (of which, their advantage is overblown and driven wholly by Sony's marketing dollar), will mitigate that limited growth in the absolutely critical areas of GPU and RAM improvements, but that is still something to factor into this whole thing.

The other thing is I expect AMD hype to be overblown again. People thought Zen 3 was going to destroy Intel's gaming performance, and it fell a good deal short. I don't expect AMD to touch Nvidia's performance - especially considering how very far behind AMD's GPU tech has been compared to how not-at-all-far-behind their CPU tech was.

Personally, I will get a PS5 at launch provided Sony shows at least one exclusive game that interests me (which may be less likely than ever what with the open world 3rd person adventure clones which are mainstream popular these days), but I still expect it is likely. But I expect the PS5 to be a blip in my PC gaming otherwise.

All that said, I've long believed that console hardware does drive AAA game development simply because it raises the bar on the lowest common denominator. It's also not like indie or even middle-tier devs are in the position to push tech like they were in the early 90's through the mid 2000's. Some PC gamers will have to upgrade their hardware to catch up to where the console spec is going to be (a 8-core CPU, a nvme SSD, etc), but those riding the cutting edge probably won't feel any change at all besides complaining on Steam reviews that they can't max out the latest title and get the 120Hz they expect (XCom 2's release being one of the grossest recent examples, where the game looked amazing and people were trying to run it at launch with 4xSSAA or something).
 
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Mivey

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I have already watched the video. He didn't make any erroneous statements.
He was told a pretty poorly explained summary of the Cerny talk, and made some comments based on those half-truths, as he explains in the video. And as he points out, with SSD it's often about far more than just the pure speed, as Linus Tech Tips have shown in one of their earlier videos comparing three kinds of SSD against each other. The presentation from Cerny was also quite simply pointing out what having a video game console, fully built around an SSD, with a custom controller, can do for developing games on consoles. Like, it's one thing to make fun of the fans who barely understand anything about the tech, but claiming Cerny or Sweeney don't know about what that tech means for the development of video games, that's just silly and it's clear why Linus felt embarrassed once he actually looked at the stuff himself, instead of trusting the words of console or PC enthusiasts.
 

low-G

old school cool
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One of the biggest limitations about the generally non-informed and YT'er discussions about SSDs and fast streaming is a complete lack of knowledgable discussion about the various tradeoffs and choices developers are going to have to make with long term storage bottleneck reduction.

Certainly, the console makers (any fixed build device maker should do this) are correct to offload decompression, but few recognize that even decompression of data off a 5400RPM HDD is bottlenecked by a CPU. I think the biggest advantage of consoles may be that they'll be able to stream assets directly into unified memory, but I still wonder how well the console CPUs will handle the bandwidth of incoming data (regardless of no decompression). With as limited as console RAM is, I think the big bottleneck will be this tiny pool of data to pour all the incoming decompressed data into.

The advantages of UE5 or any other game/engine dependent on streaming assets are going to be somewhat lost considering they won't be able to store sufficient assets to really leverage the speed (both limited by SSD size and RAM size). You probably can't realistically sell a game over 600GB to console owners. You might not even be able to sell a game over 200GB (which would mean that asset quality wouldn't be distinguishable from games we already have today, like CoD MW). And if you have some gargantuan assets that use 40 or 50GB in a scene, that means you'll have to reuse that really great asset set over and over to make a game with any length or number of maps.

It's almost as if now we have this really flat game development (in terms of bottlenecks), like arcade games from the early 80's. That actually makes me kind of hopeful, because I think those games are by and large better than what we get today. Maybe we can bring back Quake 3 style maps etc.

But what we're likely to get is titles like Horizon only most every inch of the game just looks the same -- little asset variety but the assets look phenomenal. It's almost the polar opposite of something like Rage (which was 100% asset variety (limited by artistic effort), of which getting away from is a good thing IMO).
 

Alexandros

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He was told a pretty poorly explained summary of the Cerny talk, and made some comments based on those half-truths, as he explains in the video. And as he points out, with SSD it's often about far more than just the pure speed, as Linus Tech Tips have shown in one of their earlier videos comparing three kinds of SSD against each other. The presentation from Cerny was also quite simply pointing out what having a video game console, fully built around an SSD, with a custom controller, can do for developing games on consoles. Like, it's one thing to make fun of the fans who barely understand anything about the tech, but claiming Cerny or Sweeney don't know about what that tech means for the development of video games, that's just silly and it's clear why Linus felt embarrassed once he actually looked at the stuff himself, instead of trusting the words of console or PC enthusiasts.
The problem is that both Cerny and Sweeney are lacing their tech speak with heavy doses of marketing. I get why Linus wanted to apologize but in my opinion the hyperbole surrounding the SSD discussion should be made fun of to some degree.
 

Swenhir

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Apr 18, 2019
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The point about CPU bottlenecks is well taken but I'd like to retort with two elements :
  • The first is latency and throughputs which jumped up by two orders of magnitude. It's hard to understate how much of a massive change this is and the things it enables. From reduced pop-in to much wider and more detailed worlds, the impact of this on streaming only takes a single GDC presentation to convince you of the difference it makes. The Insomniac spider-man one comes to mind. Streaming was driven by hard, maximum theoretical hdd streaming numbers and it's not hard to get what an SSD means in that context. It's mostly the removal of a bottleneck.

  • There's a game that can give you a glimpse into the future of all this, and it's Star Citizen. It has required an SSD for anything approaching a smooth experience for the past few years and it is really easy to see why. The sheer level of detail and scale of the worlds it depicts is absolutely mind-boggling, I am playing that game without an SSD and let me tell you, it chugs. There's a lot to be said about efficient streaming and its alpha state but considering the difference in specs between an SSD and an average HDD, this game seems like a good example of the likely outcome for un-upgraded PCs running games built around near-instant seek latency.
To be fair, there's an insane PS5 marketing push at the moment. It definitively lends itself to hyperbole, which makes discussing such wide jumps in storage performance from the previous gen difficult.
 

Avern

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While i am really liking the game in terms of gameplay, i haven't even finished a run with every single faction combination yet and feel already burned out.
I wish the game had a bigger variety of enemies and bosses instead of forcing you to go through the exact same every run.
I get why you'd want more, but adding enemies seems tricky. If they add too many enemy types, players won't be able to plan around upcoming threats, and the game will degenerate into an rngfest. It's rough for Monster Train especially, since the 8-fight format gives way less room for variation than something like Slay the Spire.

They could do better on the bosses though. Seraph's 3 variations feel meaningfully different, but I can't say the same for Daedalus or Fel (Plus, I don't think you can see Daed/Fel variants before getting into the fight, so you have to plan for them in a very general sense anyways.) Copying StS and having multiple possible boss fights for fights 3 and 6 that you can see in advance would probably be a whole lot more interesting.
 

freshVeggie

almost there
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low-G

old school cool
Nov 1, 2018
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That's a super solid deal with those specs. Regular OLED TVs without gaming features go for that price.
It's actually a pretty dope monitor/TV. Those specs at that price is a banger.
To me this is no brainer range, except knowing myself I’m going to be completely neurotic about burn in and it literally won’t work in my household at all. :/

I guess I need these to be $100 and disposable so I get a new one every 3 months.

(I’ll probably still buy it but then emotionally distance myself from it so I don’t care when burn in inevitably occurs)
 

freshVeggie

almost there
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If Sony fans could get a second job for a PS3, you can get a second house for a new monitor ISee

:cuteblob:
To me this is no brainer range, except knowing myself I’m going to be completely neurotic about burn in and it literally won’t work in my household at all. :/

I guess I need these to be $100 and disposable so I get a new one every 3 months.

(I’ll probably still buy it but then emotionally distance myself from it so I don’t care when burn in inevitably occurs)

If you have time (and enough interest) check these two videos out. The gist is, OLED burn-in shouldn't really happen for normal users.
 
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Ascheroth

Chilling in the Megastructure
Nov 12, 2018
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Sooo, Final Fantasy 12, which one of the 3 soundtrack options should one pick - Original, Reorchestrated, OST?
 

Knurek

OG old coot
Oct 16, 2018
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Sooo, Final Fantasy 12, which one of the 3 soundtrack options should one pick - Original, Reorchestrated, OST?
Whatever you do, don't go for the Original soundtrack.
Square EnixVirtuos used an existing PSF2 rip instead of, you know, recording from actual hardware.
Thing is, said PSF2 rip was using FFXI sound driver, not the original one, and had some faulty data, so most tracks have bad reverb settings and a few are missing percussion samples.
OST is the same as Original, just using Hitoshi Sakimoto's 6 GB sound font, instead of 1 MB available for samples for each track on PS2.
Reorchestrated is using actual orchestra.
Up to you which you want to hear.
 

Mivey

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Sep 20, 2018
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I now own Papers, please.
Dunno when I'd get to playing it, as game is too heavy for me emotionally @3@
Very good inspector. Please proceed to your assigned living quarters, of standard size and quality.
Your shift starts at 7:00 am at the border post.

Maintain your diligence.

Glory to Arstotzka.
 
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