Community MetaSteam | September 2020 - An Offer You Definitively Can't Refuse

[Swenhir]

There are only two D&D games in production: BG3 and Dark Alliance, and the latter is an action game. You're either thinking about P:WotR which is Pathfinder and not D&D or Realms Beyond which uses WotC's OGL rules.

EDIT: Should've clarified: there are only two D&D games in production that were already revealed (there are actually many more according to WotC).

I don't think so, there is another which provided a demo a month ago. It even had proper reactions which I haven't seen any D&D implementation do. It was really amazing stuff, even if the narrative quality of the game was still hanging up in the air. It was such a perfectly literal application that I was deeply impressed.

And I found it!


Also given how much I'm having fun with Kingmaker, I can't look forward to WotR more. I'm no D&D purist either so I don't have an issue calling it D&D. Most of all, I adore the kind of mood and atmosphere Owlcat managed to elict in that game. What's even more impressive is that it's actually 3D and not simply pre-rendered from a single perspective as Obsidian's PoEI/II are, while still achieving such an impressive visual result.

I'm rambling, but basically BG3 fails to excite me, and I'm more hyped for Solasta than it at this current juncture.

 

[Ex-User (119)]

Okay, who put Avengers Queen up to asking me, a big fan of Serious Sam, whether I'm making the OT?

 

[ISee]

Sounds like a scratch to you because you obviously do not understand what D&D is.
D&D started as a pen & paper RPG but today it describes a certain core d20 based rules set. There are many worlds/settings using it like Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, Planescape, Dragonlance to name the most famous ones.
While Pathfinder isn't an official Wizard of the coast setting it is entirely based on a D&D rules set, version 3.5 if I'm not mistaken.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

In all seriousness why does morningbus hate Serious Sam?

 

[Readher]

I don't think so, there is another which provided a demo a month ago. It even had proper reactions which I haven't seen any D&D implementation do. It was really amazing stuff, even if the narrative quality of the game was still hanging up in the air. It was such a perfectly literal application that I was deeply impressed.

And I found it!


Also given how much I'm having fun with Kingmaker, I can't look forward to WotR more. I'm no D&D purist either so I don't have an issue calling it D&D. Most of all, I adore the kind of mood and atmosphere Owlcat managed to elict in that game. What's even more impressive is that it's actually 3D and not simply pre-rendered from a single perspective as Obsidian's PoEI/II are, while still achieving such an impressive visual result.

I'm rambling, but basically BG3 fails to excite me, and I'm more hyped for Solasta than it at this current juncture.

Ah, yeah. I know of Solasta, that's also OGL like Realms Beyond and not proper D&D, though. Should be a good Icewind Dale successor (what with it being much more combat than story focused than BG and similar).

As for WotR, I already backed it on KS. Kingmaker was one of the first game in many years to keep me glued to my PC for days. I only stopped playing when I encountered a game-breaking bug (was playing on launch and it was really buggy). I started playing again after patches, but I can't find time to finish it and I don't really have a lot of motivation to go through the beginning acts again.

Sounds like a scratch to you because you obviously do not understand what D&D is.

That's quite an assumption to make. I just don't see how one thing being based on another warrants calling it the same. You don't see D&D mentioned anywhere on Pathfinder's site. D&D is a WotC thing. Just because one of their editions was released under open license which other companies used as a base for their ruleset doesn't warrant calling it D&D imo. Do you call every engine which used e.g. Quake's as a base Quake engine? Or do you call it properly? You tell someone you're playing a new D&D game. They look at the list of D&D games and can't find it. Why? Because it's not actually a D&D game.

 

[Swenhir]

Ah, yeah. I know of Solasta, that's also OGL like Realms Beyond and not proper D&D, though. Should be a good Icewind Dale successor (what with it being much more combat than story focused than BG and similar).

As for WotR, I already backed it on KS. Kingmaker was one of the first game in many years to keep me glued to my PC for days. I only stopped playing when I encountered a game-breaking bug (was playing on launch and it was really buggy). I started playing again after patches, but I can't find time to finish it and I don't really have a lot of motivation to go through the beginning acts again.

That's quite an assumption to make. I just don't see how one thing being based on another warrants calling it the same. You don't see D&D mentioned anywhere on Pathfinder's site. D&D is a WotC thing. Just because one of their editions was released under open license which other companies used as a base for their ruleset doesn't warrant calling it D&D imo. Do you call every engine which used e.g. Quake's as a base Quake engine? Or do you call it properly? You tell someone you're playing a new D&D game. They look at the list of D&D games and can't find it. Why? Because it's not actually a D&D game.

I don't much care about the proper D&D-ness of games, as said earlier I have no qualms including PF in that family, but I also respect that others prefer a stricter definition. It still looks like a darn good game with incredible adherence to the rules, and I hope it can be a little more than an ID-like, combat focused journey. It certainly seems promising .

And yeah, I believe you. I started KM about... a year ago? And I'm still going, but even then looking at past bugs is pretty interesting. I think I'm going to wait a few months after release to play their next one given that even a week ago they managed to break DLCs and the UI during cutscenes with that DE update .

I understand that if you lost your saves, you can't be arsed to start again but I can tell you that other for the occasional crazy and bullshit difficulty spikes (Hello, AC30+ wisp met at level 4-5 with immunity to half the world's implements of spirit molestation), it's a fantastic game. That impression you had lasts for the whole of the game I've played through so far.

ISee speaking of PF, I'm starting to try and learn the P&P ruleset! It does seem pretty exciting but the amount of confusion with D&D 5 is a little hard. The way each one bleeds through each other in memory is confusing .

 

[texhnolyze]

I absolutely have no idea about tabletop D&D, never played nor even seen it.

What matters is that all these amazing RPGs exist and I"ll play them all.

 

[Tizoc]

Speaking of SS, I been playing Serious Sam 2nd Encounter and IMO it is a better game than First Encounter, mainly due to adding various light puzzle elements. They just really need to cut down on the enemy encounter and battle areas =_= Thats what is annoying me the most about the game. I get that their primary design is battle against dozens and dozens of enemies per arena, but that gets annoying and dull after some time.
A benevolent mix of combat and light puzzles and traversal would make the game much better.

At any rate, I am saving Serious Sam 2 for last and will do as much of the main games in SS Fusion before getting into that.

 

[Swenhir]

Speaking of SS, I been playing Serious Sam 2nd Encounter and IMO it is a better game than First Encounter, mainly due to adding various light puzzle elements. They just really need to cut down on the enemy encounter and battle areas =_= Thats what is annoying me the most about the game. I get that their primary design is battle against dozens and dozens of enemies per arena, but that gets annoying and dull after some time.
A benevolent mix of combat and light puzzles and traversal would make the game much better.

At any rate, I am saving Serious Sam 2 for last and will do as much of the main games in SS Fusion before getting into that.

I think I really agree with you. I loved the first game's mood and environments but the battle arenas sucked. I preferred it when it was simply moving through levels against the tide of enemies without any blocked progression.

 

[Readher]

I understand that if you lost your saves, you can't be arsed to start again but I can tell you that other for the occasional crazy and bullshit difficulty spikes (Hello, AC30+ wisp met at level 4-5 with immunity to half the world's implements of spirit molestation), it's a fantastic game. That impression you had lasts for the whole of the game I've played through so far.

It's not that I lost my saves, but rather that they were corrupted beyond repair by bugs And I already started again. It's just that I'm not as motivated to keep playing as I was back then since I have to replay the first few acts before I get to new stuff and replaying isn't as exciting. New games came out since then so I have other things that occupy me as well, thus I'm still at Act 1 even though I started about 2 months ago. With DE release and all, I'll probably start over in some time just to be safe.

 

[Swenhir]

It's not that I lost my saves, but rather that they were corrupted beyond repair by bugs And I already started again. It's just that I'm not as motivated to keep playing as I was back then since I have to replay the first few acts before I get to new stuff and replaying isn't as exciting. New games came out since then so I have other things that occupy me as well, thus I'm still at Act 1 even though I started about 2 months ago. With DE release and all, I'll probably start over in some time just to be safe.

Yeah, the first act can be a bit of a slog if there's no discovery to it whatsoever. Lots more choice later on! I also know that the introduction of new mechanics at the end of the first act had been so daunting and open that I dropped the game for a few months just to find the energy to tackle the learning cliff.

I'm glad you're returning to it .

 

[Readher]

Yeah, the first act can be a bit of a slog if there's no discovery to it whatsoever. Lots more choice later on! I also know that the introduction of new mechanics at the end of the first act had been so daunting and open that I dropped the game for a few months just to find the energy to tackle the learning cliff.

I'm glad you're returning to it .

I got to the the part where you get proclaimed a queen/king. Then the dialogue bugged, Amiri disappeared from my party and in general there was nothing I could do to fix it.

 

[ISee]

I just don't see how one thing being based on another warrants calling it the same

I didn't call it the same,I said it is using the same rules for character creation, combat, leveling up, items etc.
The reason they are not calling it D&D is because they are not a wizards of the coast company and don't want to pay license fees.

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

At this point you are arguing if it's fair to call chicken nuggets from burger king a chicken dish, because it isn't called McNuggets.

What you are describing with you engine example is taking a "rule set" and modifying it until it turns into something completely new. This has not happened with pathfinder. It is in large parts the same thing rules wise. It's not similar or based upon.

 

[Echoes]

Speaking of SS, I been playing Serious Sam 2nd Encounter and IMO it is a better game than First Encounter, mainly due to adding various light puzzle elements. They just really need to cut down on the enemy encounter and battle areas =_= Thats what is annoying me the most about the game. I get that their primary design is battle against dozens and dozens of enemies per arena, but that gets annoying and dull after some time.
A benevolent mix of combat and light puzzles and traversal would make the game much better.

At any rate, I am saving Serious Sam 2 for last and will do as much of the main games in SS Fusion before getting into that.

Overall, they are still fun to some extent but they haven't aged as well as other fps. They are too shallow, at that time it was one of the highlights, just take your guns and kill everything. Despite that they are worth a revisit especially in coop.

 

[Swenhir]

I got to the the part where you get proclaimed a queen/king. Then the dialogue bugged, Amiri disappeared from my party and in general there was nothing I could do to fix it.

Woah, that's a bad one, especially with how much you kind of need her early on.

Also, I kind of agree with ISee but I don't want to be anal about it. I'm not sure what makes a thing D&D or not, but in my mind the interest is sparked by an adherence to the rules and classes. There are a lot of branding and licencing issues in there, aren't there?

 

[Readher]

I didn't call it the same,I said it is using the same rules for character creation, combat, leveling up, items etc.
The reason they are not calling it D&D is because they are not a wizards of the coast company and don't want to pay license fees.

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

At this point you are arguing if it's fair to call chicken nuggets from burger king a chicken dish, because it isn't called McNuggets.

What you are describing with you engine example is taking a "rule set" and modifying it until it turns into something completely new. This has not happened with pathfinder. It is in large parts the same thing rules wise. It's not similar or based upon.

A chicken dish would be a designation much closer to cRPG (in the context of games).
WotC - McDonald's
Paizo - Burger King
McNuggets - D&D
However Burger King's nuggets are called - Pathfinder

You're the one calling chicken nuggets from Burger King McNuggets. The conflict is that you're basically treating D&D as a very general, broad term that can be applied to multiple things related to it, whereas I consider it a strictly WotC thing. That is, because as I've said before, when you look up D&D games list, you won't find Pathfinder games there. A cRPG list will work though.

 

[ISee]

There are a lot of branding and licencing issues in there, aren't there?

Not really. There is an open source version of the D&D rule set, so to speak.
You can take it and make your own pen and paper RPG with it. But that doesn't mean that you can use D&D in the name without paying wizards of the coast.

It's like taking an open source unreal engine 4 version with Fortnite assets and making a battle royale game with it.
It still wouldn't be allowed to be called Fortnite 2. Even if the map and gameplay would be 80% similar.

whereas I consider it a strictly WotC thing.

You can consider it what you want.
I already gave you all the explanation that is needed. Please Click on the Wikipedia article about pathfinder and tell me what license it is using.

Spoiler: it's D&D 3.5 open license.
And that's why I repeat myself. It's fair enough to call it a D&D game.

I have nothing else to say to you about this topic.

 

[Swenhir]

Not really. There is an open source version of the D&D rule set, so to speak.
You can take it and make your own pen and paper RPG with it. But that doesn't mean that you can use D&D in the name without paying wizards of the coast.

That makes good sense. I do believe that Solasta has license from WotC to use the 5th edition's rules, so I'm kind of puzzled about why it shouldn't be treated as bona fide D&D :

Wizards of the Coast granted Tactical Adventures a license to use the Dungeons and Dragons SRD 5.1 Ruleset, further anchoring our will to make the most faithful video game adaptation with the Tabletop Ruleset and craft the game you are hoping for!

Not that I really care, I consider it as D&D and that's the end of it for me. I'm just not following the logic ^^".

 

[Le Pertti]

For me D&D is just which universe it's set in and not what rules it uses.

 

[Swenhir]

For me D&D is just which universe it's set in and not what rules it uses.

Now that's damn interesting, because for me it's the opposite. D&D is a set of rules that doesn't really have a set universe, just an impressionistic fantasy world.

 

[ISee]

For me D&D is just which universe it's set in and not what rules it uses.

Ist Planscape Torment a D&D game?

 

[Readher]

Ist Planscape Torment a D&D game?

Why wouldn't it be? Planescape is one of the worlds D&D uses. Now, a better question is, is Dungeons & Dragons: Dark Alliance a D&D game considering it's going to be a real-time action game with no dice throws and other things from the D&D ruleset involved?

 

[MonthOLDpickle]

Yea all ruining it. All of yous.

 

[Le Pertti]

Swenhir sure D&D back in the physical days were open to own campaigns but the official ones all took place in the same universe I think? So when someone speaks about a D&D I always assume Sword Coast and all that.

ISee hmh not sure, I have never played it? Yes I know, I am very much ashamed over that blind spot in my gaming history haha.

 

[Tizoc]

Overall, they are still fun to some extent but they haven't aged as well as other fps. They are too shallow, at that time it was one of the highlights, just take your guns and kill everything. Despite that they are worth a revisit especially in coop.

The Coop part is true, 16 player coop on Higher difficulties sounds pretty interesting.

 

[Swenhir]

Why wouldn't it be? Planescape is one of the worlds D&D uses. Now, a better question is, is Dungeons & Dragons: Dark Alliance a D&D game considering it's going to be a real-time action game with no dice throws and other things from the D&D ruleset involved?

That example made me give up haha. Yeah, I have no idea how the application of the trademarked word works. I guess I'll hold onto what it means to me.

 

[ISee]

Is gears tactics a gears game despite not being a third person cover shooter? Of course.

I seriously don't even understand the problem with pathfinder. It is officially using mechanics and rules under the D&D license. It plays like any other D&D rpg game out there. It's just not trademarked by wizards of the coast as one of many D&D scenarios.

 

[Le Pertti]

ISee As I understand it, I wouldn't call Pathfinder a D&D game. For the same reason as your gears example.

 

[Readher]

Is gears tactics a gears game despite not being a third person cover shooter? Of course.

Of course, but you're not calling it kill.switch just for using the same gameplay mechanics, right? Even if it plays like any other cover shooter out there. What does it matter from whom the base was licensed from? Was every Doom clone (of which there were tens) called Doom? Engine licensed from id, played like Doom, just not trademarked by id.

 

[Swenhir]

Is gears tactics a gears game despite not being a third person cover shooter? Of course.

I seriously don't even understand the problem with pathfinder. It is officially using mechanics and rules under the D&D license. It plays like any other D&D rpg game out there. It's just not trademarked by wizards of the coast as one of many D&D scenarios.

I guess it's an "unofficial" D&D game but we all know what is inside the sausage. The Core Rulebook actually pokes at the issue and it's hilarious how no names are named :

It started in early 1997. Steve Winter, Creative Director at TSR, told a few of us designers and editors that we should start thinking about a new edition of the world’s most popular roleplaying game. For almost three years, a team of us worked on developing a new rules set that built upon the foundation of the 25 years prior. Released in 2000, 3rd Edition started a new era. A few years later, a different set of designers made updates to the game in the form of 3.5.

Today, the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game carries on that same tradition as the next step in the progression. Now, that might seem inappropriate, controversial, or even a little blasphemous, but it’s still true. The Pathfinder RPG uses the foundations of the game’s long history to offer something new and fresh. It’s loyal to its roots, even if those roots are—in a fashion—borrowed.

 

[warp_]

To be fair I'm going to assume it's so that "real fans" get one on release date and not scalpers or something, since you typically hear that a lot about how companies don't care about the fan base and stuff like that.

A recent example of this is the Lego Star Wars Bespin set, some of the reviews pretty much say just that.

sony also did the same thing earlier this gen with the 20th anniversary ps4. not really the big deal games forums tried to make it into imo.

 

[Le Pertti]

Speaking of Pathfinder, I have yet to play it, people talking about how long and hard it is has scared me away from it but I do love cRPGs!

 

[ISee]

Of course, but you're not calling it kill.switch just for using the same gameplay mechanics, right? Even if it plays like any other cover shooter out there. What does it matter from whom the base was licensed from? Was every Doom clone (of which there were tens) called Doom? Engine licensed from id, played like Doom, just not trademarked by id.

I'd call kill switch gears any day if it would be using the same music, the same animations, the same models, the same weapon rules for damage, the same assets etc.
All legally obtained thorough the gears open source license.

The similarities would be significantly deeper than just cover shooting in that case. I'm not calling divinity a D&D game. I'm explicitly calling pathfinder one.

In the end: if it looks like a duck, it swimms like a duck and it quacks like a duck. It is a duck. Especially if it has "using official duck license" on it.

 

[Le Pertti]

In the end: if it looks like a duck, it swimms like a duck and it quacks like a duck. It is a duck. Especially if it has "using official duck license" on it.

But! Which universe is the duck in?

 

[Swenhir]

But! Which universe is the duck in?

Quackistan!

And while Kingmaker can be hard, it's more of a circumstancial hard. It's that the baseline for the game is normally tuned, and in there are thrown encounters that are clearly designed to be tackled later. The game is designed to kill you, make you reload and come later.

I think it's crap design that mars an otherwise splendid game, but that's where the talk of difficult comes from in my opinion. I would say that combat is also really fun and challenging, making you learn and take time building your characters in way that's really joyful to me.

Except when the AI screws up and triggers half the world's attacks of opportunities when the pathfinding heh craps itself.

 

[Readher]

I'd call kill switch gears any day if it would be using the same music, the same animations, the same models, the same weapon rules for damage, the same assets etc.
All legally obtained thorough the gears open source license.

But none of that except for weapon rules is true for P: Kingmaker? What D&D music, animations, models and assets does it use? Kingmaker has similar gameplay mechanics to D&D cRPGs, just like kill.switch has similar gameplay mechanics to Gears of War. If you'll start arguing about the similarities of the setting, I'll just exchange GoW for Spec Ops: The Line and the point will stand.

 

[Tomasety]

Regarding the previous topic, this is all about tagging which is partially user-defined.
For instance, do you consider Temtem a JRPG?

 

[Readher]

Regarding the previous topic, this is all about tagging which is partially user-defined.
For instance, do you consider Temtem a JRPG?

The thing is, we already have a term for games like Baldur's Gate and Kingmaker, no matter what company they come from - cRPG. It's a term for games based on tabletop RPGs that adapt tabletop rules to games in one way or another. Using D&D to describe them just adds needless confusion for people who aren't knowledgeable in the subject.

 

[Swenhir]

The thing is, we already have a term for games like Baldur's Gate and Kingmaker, no matter what company they come from - cRPG. It's a term for games based on tabletop RPGs that adapt tabletop rules to games in one way or another. Using D&D to describe them just adds needless confusion for people who aren't knowledgeable in the subject.

I really don't agree, sorry .

D&D refers primarily to a ruleset, the worlds provided by WotC have a name of their own as far as I know. D&D is not associated with one given universe and the colloquial meaning for "playing D&D" refers to the rules more often than not. It's not really important anyway but I think we have to be fair there. PF is kind-of D&D, PoE has nothing to do with D&D and is still a cRPG. As are the D:OS games, who can't be construed as anything close to D&D.

I really struggle to understand why Solasta couldn't be called a D&D game when it all but uses, verbatim, the licensed ruleset. I think that between players, it's understood we can call it that even if WotC's licensing and branding department might object .

 

[Readher]

PoE has nothing to do with D&D and is still a cRPG.

Try saying that on RPG Codex and see how it goes

 

[Swenhir]

Try saying that on RPG Codex and see how it goes

I hope I'm not expected to hold the Codex in any kind of high standard when it comes to intellectual honesty or the ability to hold a discussion given the general atmosphere there :/.

I persist : PoE is not D&D in any way other than belonging in the general family of western RPG archetypes. I also feel this discussion is not really achieving much so I'm going to stop now

 

[Le Pertti]

So what do you call games like Baldurs Gate, Neverwinter Nights and so on that are official D&D games set in the same universe?

 

[kio]

So what do you call games like Baldurs Gate, Neverwinter Nights and so on that are official D&D games set in the same universe?

cRPGs with D&D version X ruleset

If I'm not mistaken BG is D&D 2, NWN is D&D 2.5


edit: I came late to the discussion but are we really arguing that Pathfinder and D&D are the same? It's like sayism judaism and islamism is the same religion. Sure there's a large common branch in the ancestry but it's a totally different thing with different values, mechanics, rules, etc.

 

[Cacher]

Sorry to interrupt here... but I need your wisdom

WTF is Nintendo thinking? Are they going to bankrupt after March 2021?

 

[Le Pertti]

cRPGs with D&D version X ruleset

If I'm not mistaken BG is D&D 2, NWN is D&D 2.5

I mean games that arent cRPGs but still in the same universe? Like those hack and slash console games. That which I thought D&D was the term but if people are using D&D to mean the ruleset or type of game then I don't know what the umbrella term is for all the games that are in the official D&D universe?

 

[warp_]

Sorry to interrupt here... but I need your wisdom

WTF is Nintendo thinking? Are they going to bankrupt after March 2021?

they will sell them separately, probably. kinda hoping for that cause i only want galaxy from that collection.

 

[Swenhir]

I mean games that arent cRPGs but still in the same universe? Like those hack and slash console games. That which I thought D&D was the term but if people are using D&D to mean the ruleset or type of game then I don't know what the umbrella term is for all the games that are in the official D&D universe?

I would say that they are within the Forgotten Realms if I'm not mistaken. That's the name of their shared universe.

Also by no means am I saying PF is the same as D&D 5, it very much isn't. But it is very strongly D&D in a general, historical sense with its 3.5 ruleset roots.

 

[Cacher]

they will sell them separately, probably. kinda hoping for that cause i only want galaxy from that collection.

I guess it is something like that, or N64 / GC going up in NSO collection.

 

[warp_]

or maybe the switch 2 comes out march 2021. lol

 

[Le Pertti]

I would say that they are within the Forgotten Realms if I'm not mistaken. That's the name of their shared universe.

Yeah you are completely right! Forgot(heh) about Forgotten Realms as a name/term.