Community MetaSteam | September 2020 - An Offer You Definitively Can't Refuse

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Arsene

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fantomena said:
Yeah, it's 50% off. Been waiting for that 50% off. Has something happened?
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The founder of Lab Zero, (Indivisible’s dev studio) Mike Z got accused of Sexual harassment, abuse and racism and a bunch of the studio’s employees came out with their own stories and resigned from the company, and they just announced a few hours ago every employee at Lab Zero that didn’t bail got laid off and now the only employee is Mike.

Honestly if you buy Indivisible most of the profit will probably go to 505 anyway but Mike Z might get some sort of cut.
 
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fantomena

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Well shit. Im also not willing to take a risk of having game pass fuck the game up after some hours of play.
 
Swenhir

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Amzin said:
Calling Pathfinder "D&D" is, firstly, dismissive of the Pathfinder team. They've worked hard on their content, their updates, and their lore, and despite sharing the original ruleset (of one of the versions set out as part of D&D, however note WotC also released the ruleset separately), Pathfinder deserves to be called by what they've established themselves as.
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I had no such intention! I get what you are saying but I only meant to refer to the roots of PF, which they themselves acknowledge. The system is monstrously fun and good and they deserve all the credit they get. PF is still closely related to a D&D-family of rulesets, much more closely than say, D:OS2. That was the only point I aimed to make and the fact the whole debate is plastered over a couple pages speaks more to how nerdy we are :p.
 
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kio

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ISee said:
I'm certainly calling it D&D Star Wars, my whole role playing group is.
We played both the very old D6 Star Wars rule set and tried out the D&D version when it arrived, also many years ago.
We quickly went back to the old D6 version and still play that (though very occasionally now and not once in 2020 for obvious reasons), but that's another story. Point is, yes that Star Wars P&P RPG deserves to be called D&D Star Wars.

You see, I don't think using a already proven rule set is a bad thing.

But would you honestly not recommend Pathfinder Kingmaker to somebody looking for a fresh, new D&D RPG?
Would you really say: There is this Pathfinder Game, but it is clearly not D&D so you won't like it?
A person looking for a D&D experience is looking for a certain rule set and not a setting. D&D =|= Forgotten Realms. It's actually no longer a scenario at all. It's just a rule set now.

This whole conversation started if it is fair to call Pathfinder a D&D game and I stand by my yes.
If you like the D&D rule set, played the different P&P iterations. You can start Pathfinder, skip any tutorial and you'll immediately feel like it's your tenth play through. It's like coming home, because it screams D&D rules.
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Would you also call Quake a Doom game? Or Call of Duty a Halo game? They play the same, if someone likes one they must like the other right? They share the same genre so it's easy to find similarities in the way they play, you point and shoot, but that's it really. Just because they are all FPS games doesn't mean they are all the same. Some are more arcade-like, others are more precision shooters and other more twitch shooters. The overall genre is the same but the subgenre each falls into, defined by the mechanics and systems within each of them, are so vastly different that you get different experiences out of each of them.
Same thing with happens in cRPGs that use Pathfinder or D&D rules/systems. They share the same genre, look similar and play in a particular way, yet the systems within them defined by whatever ruleset each use are different and provide you a different experience.

On a personal note, I consider myself well versed in terms of the D&D ruleset, at least as far as it's use in cRPGs go, and I can tell you that I felt completely lost at first when I started Kingmaker, because the systems and rules are different, and it was only when I stopped trying to look at it like another game with a D&D ruleset that I started to enjoy myself and eventually learn the intricassies of that particular ruleset.

Will someone that generally likes cRPGs based on D&D ruleset like Kingmaker? Yes, it's another cRPG.
Will someone that likes specifically the D&D ruleset within cRPGs like Kingmaker? Probably. It's hard to tell.
 
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ISee

ISee

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kio said:
Would you also call Quake a Doom game? Or Call of Duty a Halo game?
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.

]Of course not. Because as you said, despite being in the same genre, they play differently, look differently, weapons feel differently, the music and art is different.
The problem here is: You are strictly thinking in computer game terms, but Forgotten Realms and Pathfinder are Pen and Paper RPG scenarios, using the D&D rule set. This is something entirely different and goes a lot further than just a coincidental genre relationship.

I've said it on the other page and I'll gladly repeat it again. Rule Sets in P&P games are the most important component for those games.
It becomes more and more clear to me that this is something that needs to be experienced so it can be understood.

I'm explicitly comparing Pathfinder and D&D - Forgotten Realms here by the way. I'm for sure not comparing Baldur's Gate and Divinity 2. Those are both cRPGs and relate to each other like Halo and Call of Duty. I'd never call Divintiy 2 a D&D game. I understand that products have similarities to each other in a genre.

But Kingmaker is entirely based on the D&D rule set. It takes place in a different setting but everything else is the same. Which may not sound relevant in video game terms, because you maybe think "rule sets" are the quivalent of engines (or something like that). But it is far more.

To give you a video game exmaple: If you'd see a game that is called "Beelzebub" and it would look like this:
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You'd immediately call it Diablo. But then you'd learn that it was just made with Diablo assets, with the same engine, the same animations, same game logic etc.
Everything legally obtained through a Diablo version 3.5 open source license. The story is of course different and the end-boss "Beelzebub" isn't a demon but an Alien from the galaxy XYZ 5 and those are not skeletons, but androids that looks like skeletons.
Beelzebub the game would be an action RPG, just like Diablo. But it would also be much more and calling it Diablo like would be an underestimation. The similarities are too overwhelming.

And while I'm heavily exaggerating here. The rule set is as important in a P&P game, as assets, music, animations, engine, look, art style (etc.) in a video game.
That's the case because there are only two main components in a P&P game. The rules that allow players to interact with the game world through a dungeon master. And the setting itself.
Those rules are very complex in a P&P game. Core rule books have often hundred of pages for good reasons. And there are often dozens of additional complementary rule books. They are quintessential to what the game is!
But I'm having trouble describing the significance of the rule set to people who have not played P&P.

There are many P&P games that use a D&D rule set iteration:
Star Wars, Forgotten Realms (many people mistake FR with D&D, but it's just one of many scenarios), Planescape, Dark Sun, Dragon Lance, Ravenloft and PathFinder is one of them. And while they all have different stories, they all are D&D games, because they use the same deciding rule set.
 
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QFNS

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D&D is not a generic term for any roleplaying thing though. You can't use it generically and WotC will sue you if you try to use it commercially.

This is the old "is it a copy machine or a 'Xerox' " question and despite wanting to apply it somewhat generically to other role-playing games PnP or not, it doesn't work that way.
A thing is a "D&D" thing if it has the dungeons and dragons license. Period. Dark Alliance is a D&D thing. Pathfinder is not. Regardless of Pathfinder's origins as open-source role-playing in a D&D 3.5ish system, it is not D&D.
Like it or not, Dungeons and Dragons is a brand now and it treated that way.
 
Mor

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Well, as you might have noticed, today 505 has an in-front store page banner announcing their weekend/publisher sale and it's a dynamic banner, right (as you can see in the picture I just recorded) but what if I told you that it's a combination/mixing of 3 of their previous banners :blobeyes::blobeyes::blobeyes:

Specifically:

Bloodstained - June 18, 2019
Death Stranding - July 14, 2020
Control - August 27, 2020




Here, check them out, I recorded and downloaded all of them :evilblob:



EDIT: as I'm a very smart person I totally forgot that Bloodstained banner was just animated for a very short period of time back in the day, they updated it at some point but never got to record it so yeah, that is lost forever :blobclosecry:
 
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ISee

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QFNS said:
Regardless of Pathfinder's origins as open-source role-playing in a D&D 3.5ish system, it is not D&D.
Like it or not, Dungeons and Dragons is a brand now and it treated that way.
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D&D was always a brand. And Pathfinder is of course not a wizard of the coast product and therefore it is not having D&D in its name.
It's also not D&D 3.5ish, it is D&D 3.5. The relation ship is much closer, than an "ish" is indicating.

Pathfinder and D&D have a very unique license relationship and just defining it by who is holding what rights to what name is not enough to describe how entwined both D&D and Pathfinder are. I think you have a weak argument here, because it isn't a typical license situation.

I will keep on recommending Pathfinder Kingmaker to anybody that is asking for a D&D based PC game. Because in the end that's what Pathfinder is. A D&D game with a different setting that was so good that it took of on its own.
 
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Routa

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gabbo

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lashman said:
... aaaand that's episode 2 of Tell Me Why done

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you arent secretly (but in the most unsubtle way possible) on DONTNOD's marketing team payroll are you? 🤣

warp_ said:
it is real



but because it's nintendo there is a monkey's paw as always

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Do i keep hunting for Sunshine on GC for a decent (sub-$90) price or get this and a switch?.... choices..
 
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Amzin

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ISee said:
I'm certainly calling it D&D Star Wars, my whole role playing group is.
We played both the very old D6 Star Wars rule set and tried out the D&D version when it arrived, also many years ago.
We quickly went back to the old D6 version and still play that (though very occasionally now and not once in 2020 for obvious reasons), but that's another story. Point is, yes that Star Wars P&P RPG deserves to be called D&D Star Wars.

You see, I don't think using a already proven rule set is a bad thing.

But would you honestly not recommend Pathfinder Kingmaker to somebody looking for a fresh, new D&D RPG?
Would you really say: There is this Pathfinder Game, but it is clearly not D&D so you won't like it?
A person looking for a D&D experience is looking for a certain rule set and not a setting. D&D =|= Forgotten Realms. It's actually no longer a scenario at all. It's just a rule set now.

This whole conversation started if it is fair to call Pathfinder a D&D game and I stand by my yes.
If you like the D&D rule set, played the different P&P iterations. You can start Pathfinder, skip any tutorial and you'll immediately feel like it's your tenth play through. It's like coming home, because it screams D&D rules.
Click to expand...
If they actually wanted a D&D game? No, I would not recommend it. If they wanted a game like D&D? Then sure. Although that also depends on what they like about D&D, what version, what setting (Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Eberron, Planescape, etc.). The point is, Pathfinder is not D&D. It sounds like you and your group use D&D as a generic for RPG and the rulesets a lot of RPGs use. The Star Wars game is based on that ruleset but it also has very distinct, very different elements that are not present in D&D. As does Pathfinder once you get out of the core rulebook (especially after all these years - they've created a ton of cool stuff).

In your other comment, I wouldn't call that game Diablo either, because it isn't. Especially if it's been iterated on for years with tons of addition by the team behind it.

Swenhir said:
I had no such intention! I get what you are saying but I only meant to refer to the roots of PF, which they themselves acknowledge. The system is monstrously fun and good and they deserve all the credit they get. PF is still closely related to a D&D-family of rulesets, much more closely than say, D:OS2. That was the only point I aimed to make and the fact the whole debate is plastered over a couple pages speaks more to how nerdy we are :p.
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Yea, this is more or less what I mean - Pathfinder uses the D20 3.5 core ruleset heavily (NOT exclusively limited to the exact printed license though) but it is not D&D. If someone loved D&D 3.5 and wanted more games like it, sure I'd say "Pathfinder is like that!" because it is, but it's also distinct and a labor of love and really shouldn't just be called "a D&D game", as much as I love D&D. It's useful to know it's D&D rules, but not D&D anything else. It distinguishes itself even in the core rulebook with a lot of balance changes, lore, etc.

D&D has always been a game of rules and worlds, and some of the official D&D worlds were nearly incompatible with each other actually (up until 3rd edition overhaul). D&D is not strictly the rules, and the rules are NOT the definition of D&D. The initial licensed rules didn't even have D&D in the name anywhere, it was called the d20 system for a specific reason (to not conflate the setting and such of D&D with the rules of the system).

I certainly don't think it's insulting to the folks at Pathfinder to be compared to D&D, that is after all what started their game off, but they've done a frankly objectively better job with the ruleset than WotC did and supported it much longer so it does seem unfair to call something that is bigger and more polished than 3.5 D&D ever was "a D&D game".
 
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LEANIJA

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gabbo said:
So what is the new version, does it come in a dos wrapper or something?
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Its a port to the Unity engine that they released last year for consoles.
doomwiki.org

Doom Classic Unity port

The Doom Classic Unity port is a series of official ports of Doom and Doom II initially developed by Nerve Software in cooperation with id Software and first published by Bethesda on July 26, 2019 as part of the "Year of Doom" promotional campaign. It was initially announced on stage during the...
doomwiki.org doomwiki.org
 
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gabbo

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nordschatten said:
Its a port to the Unity engine that they released last year for consoles.
doomwiki.org

Doom Classic Unity port

The Doom Classic Unity port is a series of official ports of Doom and Doom II initially developed by Nerve Software in cooperation with id Software and first published by Bethesda on July 26, 2019 as part of the "Year of Doom" promotional campaign. It was initially announced on stage during the...
doomwiki.org doomwiki.org
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Ah. Will have to give it a shot, pretty sure I own Ultimate somewhere or another digitally.
 
Pogi

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Yo, SEA friends, how's the SW: Battlefront 2 servers in our region? I might nab it.
 
Aaron D.

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Mor said:
Well, as you might have noticed, today 505 has an in-front store page banner announcing their weekend/publisher sale and it's a dynamic banner, right (as you can see in the picture I just recorded) but what if I told you that it's a combination/mixing of 3 of their previous banners :blobeyes::blobeyes::blobeyes:





Here, check them out, I recorded and downloaded all of them :evilblob:
Click to expand...

I think the more important story here is that you don't own Disco.

WTH, man?
 
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Readher

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Played a few hours of CK3 yesterday. I had a stress event and opted to convert to lower my stress level. Not long after, my liege orders me to give up my duchy title because of my faith, so I refused. Didn't even raise armies, let him conquer me (he had 15k soldiers so it was pointless to even try). He captured and imprisoned me, then offered to release me if I convert back to Orthodoxy, so naturally I agreed (the only reason I converted in the first place was to simply lose stress). That's how I ended up with my duchy title intact and my original faith at the mere cost of some prestige (and I think gold as well). Definitely a favorable outcome. Now I'm trying to capture all of Syria duchy, but the last county is held by some Gigasheik with territories in other regions and an army of ~5k (not counting allies), which is too much for my Cyprus.
 
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ISee

ISee

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Amzin said:
The point is, Pathfinder is not D&D. It sounds like you and your group use D&D as a generic for RPG and the rulesets a lot of RPGs use.
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Simply: No.
We are neither stupid, nor is D&D the only RPG we have ever played. I made it explicitly clear that I'm not considering any other P&P game that's not a Wizards of the Coast trademark to be D&D.

I could go on an elaborate write up why and how D&D 3.5 was designed to be a generic system. The main goals were unification, simplification, generalization and speeding things up. Those goals were achieved in many ways, while some other aspects didn't work out very well

But we are already so hard off topic here and this conversation is getting a bit pointless. I think all mayor arguments have been made, all we can do now is go into details and syntax. And that's not something I'm willing to waste time on today.
Different setting and further rule books aside, the core that is giving the game the equivalent of its space-time fabric is D&D 3.5
Everybody familiar with D&D 3.5 will feel automatically at home.



Amzin said:
In your other comment, I wouldn't call that game Diablo either, because it isn't.
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You see, and I would. Because, as said, it would even breach the it's a "Diablo-Like" barrier by a significant portion.
In the end all I can say is: We disagree :shrugblob:
No harm done imo.
 
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Li Kao

Li Kao

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I missed all the fun convo about P&P RPG ?
Oh, it was two pages of hair splitting :thinking-blob:

Team Pathfinder is D&D 3.5
also
Team Pathfinder 2 seem to differentiate itself enough to be its own game

Swenhir are you reading the first or second edition of Pathfinder ?
 
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ISee

ISee

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Hektor
Control got a patch and transferring save games from one version to the other is now supposed to work for unlocking the DLC.
But if I understand this correctly you need to do some manual work.

Your Steam save game directory is:

C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\userdata\xxxxxxxx\870780\remote
(if you installed Steam in the default location, of course)

You can find the other save game files in:
C:\Users\XXXXXX\AppData\Local\Remedy\Control\

If you want to transfer savegame-slot-01: you need to copy all files (except preferences_data) to the steam save game directory and rename them.

For example

global.chunk --> savegame-slot-01_global
hub.chunk --> savegame-slot-01_hub
maintenance.chunk --> savegame-slot-01_maintenance

You get the idea. delete the ".chunk" portion and add "savegame-slot-XX_" infront of the files.
 
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Kyougar

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I am a simple man.

Anything that plays in the established Fantasy worlds of Dungeons and Dragons, is a D&D game, regardless of the underlying gameplay mechanics.
Anything that uses D&D rulesets (or slightly modified) as a baseline for the gameplay, is a D&D game, regardless if they are set in an established D&D Fantasy World.


Mech Commander, Mechwarrior, Battletech, Megamek, Mech Assault, Mechwarrior Online, etc. are all Battletech games even if they are playing differently. I don't know of any games that use Battletech boardgame rulesets, but they would also be Battletech games if they used the rules but are not called Battletech (licensing reasons)
 
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Li Kao

Li Kao

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Line said:
What if you don't give a shit about labels and like Dragon Quest, Wasteland, Gothic and Dungeons&Dragons? :thinking-face:
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But this discussion wasn't about the distinction between cRPG / jRPG !
We already had posts mixing rulesets and brand, if we could not go into yet another subject matter entirely, we could avoid confusion.

You know me, I'm not in favor of compartmentalizing, but yeah, maybe a separate thread would be for the best. It seems PnP RPG are dividing us more than anime :thinking-blob:
 
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Arsene

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Damn $31 dollars for the complete edition is a really fantastic price. The base game alone was $40 (and still is) on PS4. Rayark is definitely getting my money next time I get some.
 
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