|OT| Epic vs Apple/Google - Battle of the Tims
- Thread starter warp_
- Start date
This line is worry some. Taking the game away from people who paid for it is terrible.
But this sounds to me like it's not apple that is taking the game away from people, it's epic. While blaming Apple. Maybe just branch of the other versions of the game Epic?
I don't know, sounds again like Epic is trying to do damage to be able to shift the blame.
Holy crap you are right. This is... Wow.
"Because the experience is going to be buggy, we are taking the game away in its entirety. The one you paid for. Also, Apple bad and #FreeFortnite".
Epic, Spotify and several other companies created a coalition to protest Apple's policies today.
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www.theverge.com
appfairness.org
This appears to be an attempt to generate interest with regulators and put more antitrust pressure on Apple. I think Epic would have been wiser to done something like this from the outset instead of going cowboy with their lawsuit and PR campaign.
The court hearing for Epic's injunction is Monday. I'm not a lawyer, but just from reading articles and watching YouTube videos (i.e. Hoeg Law), I think the ban on Fortnite will stay (and from what I understand, Epic will not be allowed to reapply until August 2021), but Epic's Unreal Engine account is a coin flip. Apple argued that since both the Fortnite account and UE account are tied to the same bank account, they should be under the same entity and should both be banned. The judge might view banning Epic's UE account as harmful to developers and force Apple to keep the UE account active, with the condition that Epic must be on its best behavior to stay onboard.
Also have a bonus Tim tweet:
Spotify, Epic, Tile, Match, and more are rallying developers against Apple’s App Store policies
Apple’s biggest critics are joining forces
Home - Coalition for App Fairness
App developers deserve a level playing field The Coalition for App Fairness is an independent nonprofit organization founded by industry-leading companies to advocate for freedom of choice and fair competition across the app ecosystem. Contact Us our vision Lear
appfairness.org
The court hearing for Epic's injunction is Monday. I'm not a lawyer, but just from reading articles and watching YouTube videos (i.e. Hoeg Law), I think the ban on Fortnite will stay (and from what I understand, Epic will not be allowed to reapply until August 2021), but Epic's Unreal Engine account is a coin flip. Apple argued that since both the Fortnite account and UE account are tied to the same bank account, they should be under the same entity and should both be banned. The judge might view banning Epic's UE account as harmful to developers and force Apple to keep the UE account active, with the condition that Epic must be on its best behavior to stay onboard.
Also have a bonus Tim tweet:
I'm all for Apple's walled garden being challenged. That tweet is still his usual fallacious bullshitEpic, Spotify and several other companies created a coalition to protest Apple's policies today.
Spotify, Epic, Tile, Match, and more are rallying developers against Apple’s App Store policies
Apple’s biggest critics are joining forcesThis appears to be an attempt to generate interest with regulators and put more antitrust pressure on Apple. I think Epic would have been wiser to done something like this from the outset instead of going cowboy with their lawsuit and PR campaign.Home - Coalition for App Fairness
App developers deserve a level playing field The Coalition for App Fairness is an independent nonprofit organization founded by industry-leading companies to advocate for freedom of choice and fair competition across the app ecosystem. Contact Us our vision Lear
The court hearing for Epic's injunction is Monday. I'm not a lawyer, but just from reading articles and watching YouTube videos (i.e. Hoeg Law), I think the ban on Fortnite will stay (and from what I understand, Epic will not be allowed to reapply until August 2021), but Epic's Unreal Engine account is a coin flip. Apple argued that since both the Fortnite account and UE account are tied to the same bank account, they should be under the same entity and should both be banned. The judge might view banning Epic's UE account as harmful to developers and force Apple to keep the UE account active, with the condition that Epic must be on its best behavior to stay onboard.
Also have a bonus Tim tweet:
.I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with walled gardens so long as the entity selling the service is upfront with the restrictions. I'm not personally invested in the Apple ecosystem, but I can see the appeal. At the same time, I know some of Apple's policies are draconian and should be challenged (most notably restrictions on streaming services such as XCloud).I'm all for Apple's walled garden being challenged. That tweet is still his usual fallacious bullshit
I simply hate that Epic is leading the charge and doing it in the most obnoxious way possible. Tim's guise of doing it for the greater good is annoying.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #608
tim trying hard to troll there but i'm sure a lot of the review process is automated anyway, though of course not all of it can be automated.
however he's not wrong in the replies
the push to browser is a bad customer experience and it's wack that devs have to play that game. also it negates any of the "we do this for safety" arguments apple makes in their favor.
however he's not wrong in the replies
the push to browser is a bad customer experience and it's wack that devs have to play that game. also it negates any of the "we do this for safety" arguments apple makes in their favor.
I'm with you on disliking what Apple is doing, but going android is something I regret to this day. Not only can it be janky, like raw photos on oneplus are complete garbage and is what I need the most, but what makes me want to go back to Apple is their drive for privacy and security. On an Android I have made peace that I have paid for the privilege to be a product myself to be sold for ads haha.
I don't see the problem. It's just another
Someone should point out that forcing bad customer experiences on customers is Epic's business model on PC.tim trying hard to troll there but i'm sure a lot of the review process is automated anyway, though of course not all of it can be automated.
however he's not wrong in the replies
the push to browser is a bad customer experience and it's wack that devs have to play that game. also it negates any of the "we do this for safety" arguments apple makes in their favor.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #612
guess that makes apple the whiny pc gamer of the mobile space
can't handle adding something new to their system.its a real bummer cause i don't like the moves apple is making with ios but any time i've used android for personal or work purposes, i really find it to be a miserable experience so i just end up sticking with the phone i have. one day it'll die and i'll have to make a choice again, not looking forward to that.
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Something new is fine, something shit is not.guess that makes apple the whiny pc gamer of the mobile space
Let's do the same math for the costumes and dance moves Epic is selling to children at ridiculous prices. Epic is in no way better than Apple.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #617
a costume and dance take a lot more than 12 minutes to make and are created by a team of 2d and 3d artists and animators. that was easy math, friend.
not that there's much of a comparison between a company selling something they created and apple taking a cut from the apps that other developers make.
Like. they even stole the whole Fortnite BR idea from PUBG. And yes, they took advantage of being a consultant for the developer.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #620
they stole the costume model and art? dang, crazy. you'd think they wouldn't need to have artists and modelers on staff if that was the case.
its a real shame that only one game is allowed in every genre. guess we better cancel every game being made from here on out.
either way it is not really related to the point i was making: selling a product is not in any way related to taking a cut of apps in a store and that was a bad comparison.
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I'd argue that Fortnite is like 'Ready Player One', just a bunch of pop culture references mashed in with a consistent art style. And that includes the gameplay itself.
It's not the fact that they released a BR game. It's just that they did while also doing consulting job for another game. You can argue that there's nothing wrong with it but personally it rubs me the wrong way.
Epic wants to capitalize on the audience (i.e. value) the Apple brand/platform has without paying for it. I'll believe Epic when they start writing checks for the people the stole the dances from (not gonna happen).
They stole the dance. You know, the product that they actually sell. They are literally selling the move itself.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #623
okay and....? not sure what that has to do with the original point of a designing and creating a costume to sell being in a different world than reviewing an app. just because you don't like the product doesn't mean it shouldn't be sold.
referencing a cultural "meme" isn't stealing. does blizzard need to send lady gaga checks for having a similar dance to hers in wow? how much does weird al need to pay to michael jackson's family for dancing like him in a music video? i assume you've both been pushing for that for years.
You can steal art and still need artists and manpower to do it. I don't even get that point, but whatever.
What Tim is not mentioning: How hard it is to develop and run a software store on a mega scale. His own company is behind in promised features and functionalities in spectacular ways. EGS is a lackluster shitshow of a store, because instead of mayor investments into development time and manpower money is spend on buying exclusive and childish PR campaigns.
Yes, Apple is taking money for offering your software on the Apple Store. Developing the Apple Store wasn't free, developing the hardware running the Apple Store wasn't free, processing payments across the globe is a bitch, running it isn't free either.
Apple deserves a cut for that; you are taking advantage of a system they are actively building and running. They are providing a service to you, and as always want compensation for that.
And Tim deserves to be ignored, his tweet history is actively proofing that point. Again and again and again.
What Tim is not mentioning: How hard it is to develop and run a software store on a mega scale. His own company is behind in promised features and functionalities in spectacular ways. EGS is a lackluster shitshow of a store, because instead of mayor investments into development time and manpower money is spend on buying exclusive and childish PR campaigns.
Yes, Apple is taking money for offering your software on the Apple Store. Developing the Apple Store wasn't free, developing the hardware running the Apple Store wasn't free, processing payments across the globe is a bitch, running it isn't free either.
Apple deserves a cut for that; you are taking advantage of a system they are actively building and running. They are providing a service to you, and as always want compensation for that.
And Tim deserves to be ignored, his tweet history is actively proofing that point. Again and again and again.
OP
Do you concede that you were wrong and that they aren't selling the model and art but the actual move?
I'm sorry, I'm too European to understand that.wrong
the man has an excellent point here
I also thought u.s. citizens are all over beef with their Steaks and Hamburgers.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #628
no lol why would i? that has nothing to do with the point i was making, which was that this statement
is a terrible comparison and those two things are worlds apart from each other.
yeah it may be more of an american thing but the vast majority of marketing here is that white meat (breasts) is the best part of the chicken when for many people dark meat (thighs, drumstick) is more flavorful and moist.
Weird Al specifically asks permission from the artist to do whatever he does. I haven't seen the WoW dances so I can't comment. Fortnite dances are literally ripped off whatever video they see.
And they're not only referencing them, they're actually selling a digital good of that representation. Plants vs Zombies has a Thriller MJ zombie, but they're not selling you THE zombie with the MJ stuff in it. If that makes sense.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #631
the wow dances are the same exact thing as the dances they reference: thriller dance, gaga dance, tunak tunak dance. same thing for dances and poses in uncharted mp. mortal kombat even has meme references in it now. gex based an entire character off of spouting terrible quotes from movies and tv. reusing these cultural things is nothing new in videogames so i don't see the sudden reason for uproar.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #633
if you'd prefer to be pedantic then sure: please answer the question i asked. did the steal the model and art for the costumes they sell?
if you'd like to go back to the original statement, that is another question to answer: why is their work on these models worth considering in the same sphere as reviewing an app in terms of time spent to cost?
if you'd like to go back to the original statement, that is another question to answer: why is their work on these models worth considering in the same sphere as reviewing an app in terms of time spent to cost?
The one good thing that came out of this messy "fight" so far is that it introduced me to HoegLaw, because his videos on the matter are extremely informative (and the others too). Basically throwing them in as my commuting podcast if I'm not listening to something else, lol.
Sweeney's tweet is as usual garbage.
Apple does not take 30% for "12 minute reviews". The "product" they sell to developers is access to their customer base. A customer base they've built up and spend money on to maintain and expand.
Apple basically built a big and popular shopping centre where they rent out space under certain terms, then Epic comes along and demands to be allowed to set up their own shop inside this shopping center without having to pay anything, but leeching off Apple's customers and brand.
Sweeney's tweet is as usual garbage.
Apple does not take 30% for "12 minute reviews". The "product" they sell to developers is access to their customer base. A customer base they've built up and spend money on to maintain and expand.
Apple basically built a big and popular shopping centre where they rent out space under certain terms, then Epic comes along and demands to be allowed to set up their own shop inside this shopping center without having to pay anything, but leeching off Apple's customers and brand.
I mean if you REALLY want to be pedantic, they're stealing the profits of the labor and creativity of the people who make them, unless they have some sort of royalty program for their artists.
I think Alexandros' point (and mine) is that Epic is also guilty of the same things they're accusing Apple of, i.e. profiting from someone else's creations.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #636
the artists get a paycheck, not sure where the theft is there.
and my point is that comparing the app review process to the manpower and time it takes to produce even one piece of costume dlc is a shit comparison that makes no sense if you think about it for even a moment.
No, they didn't steal the model and art. I never said they did because I knew what it is that they sell, which is the move itself. You didn't, yet you tried to make a point based on wrong information. Please be more careful in the future.
As for your second question, I don't understand it. Did I make such a comparison?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #638
i specifically said costume, i never mentioned anything about "moves" in the exact quote you posted to try and be pedantic:
please be more careful in the future.
apologies, i guess you didn't. you just replied to my statement with something completely unrelated and then implied i made an incorrect statement when i posted that a team of modelers and artists made the cosmetics they are selling in the game and that it's not at all comparable to the app review process.
to be honest i don't know wtf point you were trying to make when quoting me. perhaps don't be so vague next time.
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Not implied, plainly stated. Otherwise, yes. In a single page you tried to argue two positions based on wrong information for both. Isn't that indicative of something? That perhaps you aren't putting the necessary effort into your posts?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #640
so are y'all just this passive aggressive and shitty to everyone or is it because you don't like me, or is it that i go against the groupthink?
i really have a hard time believing someone like Alexandros is really just not reading my posts where i specifically mention costumes and then goes on to talk about "moves" and such to really prove me wrong in some way and then toss an snide insult on the side for no reason is really how you treat every poster.
or that it's an insane idea to say the app review process and the time, effort, and money put into even one costume are really comparable in any way. i get the hateboner for epic here but it really is another level to pretend that these two are the same things. or if you do believe that, i'd love to hear why. that's much more interesting of a conversation than a pedantic nitpick over "well you said 'dance' so we'll only discuss that now just so i can be correct".
feel free to nitpick this post to death but it's not like anyone can give "correct" answers in here since it's all opinion anyway.
i really have a hard time believing someone like Alexandros is really just not reading my posts where i specifically mention costumes and then goes on to talk about "moves" and such to really prove me wrong in some way and then toss an snide insult on the side for no reason is really how you treat every poster.
or that it's an insane idea to say the app review process and the time, effort, and money put into even one costume are really comparable in any way. i get the hateboner for epic here but it really is another level to pretend that these two are the same things. or if you do believe that, i'd love to hear why. that's much more interesting of a conversation than a pedantic nitpick over "well you said 'dance' so we'll only discuss that now just so i can be correct".
feel free to nitpick this post to death but it's not like anyone can give "correct" answers in here since it's all opinion anyway.
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warp_ It isn't about you or wrongthink, they were talking about epic stealing dance moves, not sure why you talk about costumes. Sure dance moves have been copied in other places but in the case of fortnite the creators of the dances have said epic to stop yet they sell those. And it isn't like the dances that epic copied were just a goofy spoof, they have literally traced the moves from videos.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #642
the post i quoted mentioned costumes and i replied to it saying that costumes take a lot of work to create. in the end the dances require work too but i meant more the costumes. i then further clarified "costumes" in my response but that was ignored, at least take my whole post into account. it seems willful at that point.
just because the moves of the dance were taken from online (which again, many video games have done over the years but we'll ignore that) that doesn't negate anything else i said.
just because the moves of the dance were taken from online (which again, many video games have done over the years but we'll ignore that) that doesn't negate anything else i said.
Well first of all, I am not representing the forum. If you feel that I am being an asshole to you, and you'd be right in feeling so, then your issue is with me alone. And yes, I was fully aware that my comments would make you upset towards me. Disagreeing with the way you choose to argue doesn't mean that I have anything against you as a person.
Why would that be an insane idea?
Creating a costume probably takes an experienced artist a few days. Reviewing a complex program could well take a comparable amount of time, depending on the breadth and depth of the requirements and the level of tool support.
Tim is, of course, as always, completely disingenuous with his "math" by implying that every application on an app store is the same in terms of complexity.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #645
a technical review of an app is more about checking off a list of requirements, its not qa or feature testing.
for example in ios14 you are required to have "sign in with apple" functioning and enabled. that's a quick check on their end. they aren't checking to make sure every character upgrade functions perfectly. as far as tool support, i'd imagine they aren't lacking at this point considering how long apple has been doing this and also being able to pump out 100k technical reviews.
in addition, as i'm sure you know, there's a lot more work and people involved in creating a costume and getting it into a game (especially one as big as fortnite) than just "an experienced artist" and "a few days". but even if you were correct, that's still more than 12 minutes.
so why purposely ignore my point in order to incite me? seems hostile for no reason. is it just a need to be "correct"? not sure what i argued that was "the wrong way".
I know what a technical review entails, I've been through a few. I've also addressed the "12 minutes" thing, and how that is based on flawed assumptions. (Specifically, that e.g. reviewing a minor update to a free clock widget with no monetization is the same as reviewing a new release or a major update to a complex piece of software)
Obviously a single average review doesn't take as long as creating a piece of DLC, but I think if you compare income to work hours the Fortnite costume is probably more overpayed than the Apple app review. Both have a 99%+ profit margin.
Obviously a single average review doesn't take as long as creating a piece of DLC, but I think if you compare income to work hours the Fortnite costume is probably more overpayed than the Apple app review. Both have a 99%+ profit margin.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #647
so then how is a technical review comparable to the time and labor to create and implement a costume, the full process of which includes reviews, iterations, approvals, and all the rest and that's assuming the process is streamlined enough that an experience modeler is handling the full process?
It's comparable in that they are both processes where the actual human effort expended is in absolutely no sane relation to the amount of profit generated.
If you tell that to proud libertarian Tim, then he'll tell you that this is great and one of the wonders of capitalism, but he has a huge problem with it in one case and not the other for some reason.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #649
so the time taken is more when making and implementing the costume vs a technical review, the difficulty of the job is higher in being an artist/modeler...but it's still a comparable situation because there's profit?
even then its $20 vs 30% of everything your app makes forever, including subscriptions.
even then its $20 vs 30% of everything your app makes forever, including subscriptions.
The fact that there is a very high (some might say "unfair") profit margin is the very reason the comparison was introduced in this thread in the first place.
So yes, that is highly relevant.
So yes, that is highly relevant.