|OT| Epic vs Apple/Google - Battle of the Tims

[warp_]

The fact that there is a very high (some might say "unfair") profit margin is the very reason the comparison was introduced in this thread in the first place.
So yes, that is highly relevant.

so is it that the amount of labor vs price is too much? i still think that is far and away tilted towards the costume dlc if we talk about labor and time spent for $20 vs the app review.

out of curiosity, what's the fair amount of profit there should be on a piece of costume dlc in everyone's opinion? or on a store cut? perhaps i'm the crazy one but i do feel that for a good costume you like, $15-30 is pretty fair and i've paid amounts in that area on mmo items before, though some were mounts and not costumes.

 

[Durante]

It doesn't really matter what I think (I'm old school and if you ask me the very idea of selling a single game costume for real money, never mind >$5, is patently absurd).

What's important is that Tim is the consummate capitalist whenever it suits him, but when someone else does something equally valid under capitalism (and equally repulsive to me personally) then he suddenly cries foul and acts like a victim.

 

[warp_]

i suppose if you see all instances of profiting as the same thing, i can understand how you'd see the two things as comparable. i hadn't considered that you were coming at it from that angle.

also two different schools of though on dlc. at this point i just see it as assumed in most games and i just remain a bit picky on what games i'll pay extra for these days. mmos, rpgs, and fighting games i'm a sucker for while i'm stingy on first person shooters and other games where you don't see your character.

 

[Copons]

so then how is a technical review comparable to the time and labor to create and implement a costume, the full process of which includes reviews, iterations, approvals, and all the rest and that's assuming the process is streamlined enough that an experience modeler is handling the full process?

Well, there's also the fact that developing a costume is by and large a one-off job, while reviewing an app is an ongoing effort, sometimes aggravated by developers who intentionally pull tricks to mess up with the review process.

 

[warp_]

nvm

 

[Alexandros]

The injunction hearing is scheduled for today. Epic is asking from the court to reinstate Fortnite on the App Store (with Epic's payment option intact), Apple is asking to be able to ban all of Epic's accounts including the Unreal Engine.

 

[Durante]

So, bets?

After listening to far too many Hoeg law videos (interesting channel) I feel like the most likely outcome is the continuation of the current status quo for the duration of lawsuit. (I.e. no Fortnite unless they remove the Epic pay option, but no termination of the UE accounts either)

 

[Swenhir]

No bets, only dishes best served with salt.

Though I will say that in terms of PR, while the balance is firmly in Apple's favor, banning UE would appear to be an overreach and screw thousands of developers. That would hurt Apple's image greatly in the gaming industry I believe.

 

[Arc]

As far as I understand, UE wouldn't exactly get banned, but Epic's access to UE tools would be restricted so they wouldn't be able to perform updates which would hobble iOS development. I'm not a dev so I'm not sure if that's the correct explanation.

In terms of odds, I think as Durante said, it'll be the status quo. Even if Epic backpedaled and reinstated IAP in Fortnite and removed their direct payment, I think Apple said they wouldn't be allowed to reapply until August next year. So, barring a small miracle for Epic, Fortnite is probably gone from iOS for the time being.

 

[Le Pertti]

No bets, only dishes best served with salt.

Though I will say that in terms of PR, while the balance is firmly in Apple's favor, banning UE would appear to be an overreach and screw thousands of developers. That would hurt Apple's image greatly in the gaming industry I believe.

I think the bigger hurt is on Epic, they seem the more unstable in this part and I think it will make many reconsider using UE in projects, no matter the outcome.

 

[warp_]

So, bets?

After listening to far too many Hoeg law videos (interesting channel) I feel like the most likely outcome is the continuation of the current status quo for the duration of lawsuit. (I.e. no Fortnite unless they remove the Epic pay option, but no termination of the UE accounts either)

this seems like most likely outcome of today

 

[Alexandros]

So, bets?

After listening to far too many Hoeg law videos (interesting channel) I feel like the most likely outcome is the continuation of the current status quo for the duration of lawsuit. (I.e. no Fortnite unless they remove the Epic pay option, but no termination of the UE accounts either)

It's the same judge as the restraining order and nothing of importance has happened between that hearing and this one so I would be very surprised if the outcome is any different.

 

[ISee]

As expected, this isn't going well for Epic

 

[Doctor Ironic]

It’s so over. Rest in piss to this dumb lawsuit.

 

[ZKenir]

They killed 1/3 of their userbase and gambled with their UE partners ability to develop on iOS for that

 

[ISee]

They killed 1/3 of their userbase for that

If I'm understanding this correctly than it's more like 10%?
Epic is counting every single iOS login as a unique, active user.
Which is just an obvious way to inflate numbers. Clearly a Tim idea.

 

[NarohDethan]

It’s so over. Rest in piss to this dumb lawsuit.

Yeah they're fucked.

 

[ISee]

this ain't taking a good turn?

---

By the way: This won't be a final verdict. This all is just about the restraining orders.

 

[Le Pertti]

Yeah, if one arm of a company does some shady backdoor shit, its only natural to block all apps of that company, since they have shown to be untrustworthy.

 

[warp_]

i wouldn't expect the actual lawsuit to start this year, or maybe near the end of the year.

 

[ISee]

Judge not taking any of the "liberate the market for the good of the people" Epic PR bullshit.
Gaming Press should take a note and look more critical at the EGS too.

 

[Arc]

i wouldn't expect the actual lawsuit to start this year, or maybe near the end of the year.

IIRC it's preliminarily planned for April.

 

[ZKenir]

If I'm understanding this correctly than it's more like 10%?
Epic is counting every single iOS login as a unique, active user.
Which is just an obvious way to inflate numbers. Clearly a Tim idea.

The 10% is the DAILY active users according to Apple.
The 1/3 is TOTAL registered users of fortnite which according to Epic came from iOS.

Most f2p games count userbases like that, FGO even counts only downloads for their banner milestones so it isn't just timmy inflating numbers, 10% is more relevant but it could be different people of that 1/3 log in at different times at different days, the impact is still huge.

 

[warp_]

hell every service does that these days too. hulu, wwe, and pretty much any streaming service with a free version include anyone who ever made an account since the service started, even if they watched one thing and never came back.

 

[ISee]

even if they watched one thing and never came back.

So you agree: Inflated numbers that shouldn't be counted.

 

[warp_]

So you agree: Inflated numbers that shouldn't be counted.

sure in an ideal world haha. but as the judge said, industry standard is industry standard, and inflated numbers are industry standard

 

[ISee]

sure in an ideal world haha. but as the judge said, industry standard is industry standard, and inflated numbers are industry standard

The judge says otherwise

 

[ZKenir]

Those numbers should absolutely be counted, as I said people of big userbases might log in at different days, not log in for a week and log in later etc. those numbers should be counted and corroborated with additional numbers such as MAU, active daily users, and "active users" with criteria that state how a user is considered "active", again 90% of the f2p games out there count userbases like that

 

[warp_]

well that's apple's lawyer, not the judge. if they weren't arguing against it they wouldn't be doing their job very well. i'm sure apple has done some fudging of numbers when it comes to icloud or gamecenter accounts too, it just is what it is.

 

[NarohDethan]

Epic getting clowned on court

 

[inky]

Judge knows Epic is full of shit when it comes to "damages", "not being forthright about their intentions", "the industry standard cut" and their definition of "monopoly".

Which in this case is what any layman with a function brain could see.

 

[Stone Ocean]

By the way: This won't be a final verdict. This all is just about the restraining orders.

Nope but it certainly sets the tone for the whole lawsuit.

Aka good luck Epic lmao

 

[Alexandros]

Epic getting clowned on court

Yeah the judge is surprisingly harsh on Epic's position.

 

[ISee]

nvm

 

[NarohDethan]

Remember that they still getting clowned when the lawsuit vs Google gets thrown out of the court.

 

[ISee]

well that's apple's lawyer, not the judge. if they weren't arguing against it they wouldn't be doing their job very well. i'm sure apple has done some fudging of numbers when it comes to icloud or gamecenter accounts too, it just is what it is.

At this point I'm fairly convinced that in 63% of cases you are disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. It is, what it is

 

[Ge0force]

[UWSL][/UWSL]

Yeah the judge is surprisingly harsh on Epic's position.

Not sure it's so surprisingly. Epic turned the whole thing into a circus. Courts don't like to play along with this.

 

[NarohDethan]

Epic should take the offer of returning Fortnite to the Store.

Not sure it's so surprisingly. Epic turned the whole thing into a circus. Courts don't like to play along with this.

Exactly. Courts arent Twitter or resetera threads.

 

[ISee]

I'm fairly sure Epic wants a jury and Apple doesn't.

 

[warp_]

At this point I'm fairly convinced that in 63% of cases you are disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. It is, what it is

but...the tweet says "apple's lawyer". did i miss something?

also you sound like the same thing my wife says LOL

 

[Ge0force]

Epic should take the offer of returning Fortnite to the Store.

I don't think that offer still exists. Afaik, Epic isn't welcome on iOS anymore for at least a year.

 

[NarohDethan]

I don't think that offer still exists. Afaik, Epic isn't welcome on iOS anymore for at least a year.

I think I read a tweet about the judge offering to place all earning on a third account if they stop their nonsense and return to iOS

 

[warp_]

so what's the chance of the other platforms getting a raise in vbucks prices to compensate for ios not coming back?

only half joking...

 

[ISee]

but...the tweet says "apple's lawyer". did i miss something?

You are inconsistent with your arguments, that's all.


You are saying that it is inflated, but because everybody else is doing it means that it's fine.
But then you are against iOS being a walled garden, despite everybody else doing it as well. Like Nintendo, Sony, Xbox.

You are further laughing, doing silly smiles meant to devalue opposing opinions.
(not just in this thread, but also recently in the steam thread)

You are confusing, inconsistent and you come off a bit arrogant at times.
That's all mate.

It's a bit like you are disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.

 

[Hektor]

I didn't watched the hearing but going by the tweets epic got dragged and beaten lol

 

[warp_]

You are inconsistent with your arguments, that's all.


You are saying that it is inflated, but because everybody else is doing it means that it's fine.
But then you are against iOS being a walled garden, despite everybody else doing it as well. Like Nintendo, Sony, Xbox.

You are further laughing, doing silly smiles meant to devalue opposing opinions.
(not just in this thread, but also recently in the steam thread)

You are confusing, inconsistent and you come off a bit arrogant at times.
That's all mate.

It's a bit like you are disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.

i did that because it's a joke. i see a common defense of "its industry standard" for the 30% cut and walled garden. however if that is fine then inflated numbers should be fine, right?

i am against all the walled gardens on phone and console. on that i feel like i've stayed pretty consistent. however i also think that "inflated numbers" are fine cause...well who gives a shit tbh?

walled gardens are actively detrimental to consumers. inflated subscriber or user numbers are not important in the slightest to anything but a corporation's bottom line. i don't think it's an odd thing to hold "conflicting beliefs" on two mostly unrelated issues like that.

if you find issue with my use of emotes, that's kinda on you. there's no devaluing of whatever opinion intended and they are built into the board after all. so they are meant to be used.

 

[Alexandros]

I didn't watched the hearing but going by the tweets epic got dragged and beaten lol

Mostly, yeah. The judge went super hard on many of Epic's key arguments.

 

[Hektor]

Mostly, yeah. The judge went super hard on many of Epic's key arguments.

That's how i'm reading it.
In law it's like in warfare, if you're the agressor and forced early into defensive plays, you already lost.

 

[Alexandros]

Good Lord that is a bad argument to try and make.

 

[ISee]

however if that is fine then inflated numbers should be fine, right?

Depends on how you argue for the walled garden.
My argumentation was never based on "industry standard". It may come up, but I'm basing my opinion on something else:
iOS is not a true monopoly, Apple deserve compensation for building and giving access to their loyal Apple consumer base, they have the right to make their platform and products as consumer unfriendly as they want to etc. We had this conversation for what feels like two pages.

Therefore, my opinion on this court case still stands: Apple has a right to cut ties with Epic and Epic is inflating their Fortnite Numbers in questionable ways, to make the situation look more dire than it is.

My private opinions on walled gardens and Apple are different though and I'll gladly repeat: I'm using Android because I dislike iOS with a passion and I'm not a fan of Googles data collection either. Further "Industry Standard" or "that's legal" never influenced my opinion if something is okay/the right thing to do.
For example: EGS is 100% legal and buying exclusives is the industry standard, it still sucks for me, but I would never be able to win against Epic in court.

In short: Shit is shit, independent of legal standing or usual business procedures. But Tim is an idiot for going prepared with arguments that will only impress gaming journalists, with malicious pre-actions and transparent selfish intent before a judge.

Now, in front of a jury? Yes, he might have a chance there.