|OT| Epic vs Apple/Google - Battle of the Tims

[crimsonheadGCN]

Google will make it easier to use 3rd party app stores in Android 12:

Google says Android 12 will make using third-party app stores easier

We’ll hear more about the changes later.

www.theverge.com

I'm guessing that the setup will include a list of App stores that a person can install in addition to the Google Play Store. I wonder if Valve will try to enter the market?

 

[Swenhir]

I don't like the judge's lack of issues with walled gardens if I understand her correctly. That being said, she's right that Epic walked into one knowingly.

 

[NarohDethan]

I don't like the judge's lack of issues with walled gardens if I understand her correctly. That being said, she's right that Epic walked into one knowingly.

I don't think she doesn't have an issue with that, but I think that's out of the scope of this lawsuit. It is more on the line of 'you already make business with all these companies who do exactly the same, why do you take issue with Apple'.

 

[Swenhir]

I don't think she doesn't have an issue with that, but I think that's out of the scope of this lawsuit. It is more on the line of 'you already make business with all these companies who do exactly the same, why do you take issue with Apple'.

That make sense then, thanks.

 

[warp_]

thanks for the explanation ISee

for me its a thing where i don't much care about the inflated numbers that epic is giving out to the judge, but i do roll my eyes at the argument because its a very tired and also very obviously dumb one. i feel like the judge probably did the same but obviously can't see what's in her head.

as far as walled gardens, i'll stick to what i've said before. i'm not a fan and i'd like them all to be challenged but goddamn it's a real bummer that the clowns at epic are the ones to finally do it. i'd take almost any company over them.

 

[ISee]

 

[Alexandros]

Regardless of the outcome of the hearing (I expect Unreal's protection to be maintained) the proceedings aptly demonstrated why Epic was the absolute worst company to raise such a case. Epic can't fully commit to the main argument because it doesn't want to get on Sony and Microsoft's bad side or it has already successfully negotiated side deals with them, the result being that it has left a wide open vector for Apple to attack from. The judge hammered home that point multiple times, even mentioned Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo by name and Epic had no response.

 

[curi0usBystander]

Epic and Apple decline trial by jury

Epic Games and Apple have both requested that their ongoing legal battle is decided by a judge, rather than a jury as r…

www.gamesindustry.biz

 

[Durante]

I honestly feel like this is a case where a jury trial would only provide spectacle rather than any extra insight.
It's essentially two megacorporations arguing over the minutiae of their business relationship, and who gets to pocket a few extra millions.

 

[Swenhir]

I honestly feel like this is a case where a jury trial would only provide spectacle rather than any extra insight.
It's essentially two megacorporations arguing over the minutiae of their business relationship, and who gets to pocket a few extra millions.

Realistically? Yes.

I think you are selling short the historical, unrealistic possibility of a walled garden being forced to open though.

 

[Stone Ocean]

A jury was basically Epic's only chance so uhh

 

[Alexandros]

As I mentioned a few pages ago, EU regulators and lawmakers are already working on legislation that big tech companies are most definitely not going to like:

Proposed EU rule may mean you can finally delete some apps from your phone

European lawmakers seem to be running out of patience with how US tech firms work.

arstechnica.com

Under the proposal, tech firms with the potential to act as gatekeepers "shall not pre-install exclusively their own applications nor require from any third-party operating system developers or hardware manufacturers to pre-install exclusively gatekeepers' own application," according to Reuters. The draft also mandates that gatekeeper companies will also not be permitted to use data collected on their platforms to target users unless that data is also shared with rival firms.

 

[Swenhir]

As I mentioned a few pages ago, EU regulators and lawmakers are already working on legislation that big tech companies are most definitely not going to like:

Proposed EU rule may mean you can finally delete some apps from your phone

European lawmakers seem to be running out of patience with how US tech firms work.

arstechnica.com

Europe has its problem, this is not one of them. Damn, I'd like all of that to come to pass. Of course they'll threaten to leave that market, and they won't, because it's also a market.

 

[gabbo]

A jury was basically Epic's only chance so uhh

That was my thinking too, as they'd just have to try and paint Apple as a big bad corporation, which wouldnt be a hard sell. Now it actually has to come down to merit. They aint got it

 

[inky]

A jury trial would happen in a year at the earliest, Epic want this done while they are currently spending all this money on their marketing campaign.

 

[Alexandros]

It's not directly related to the court battle between Apple and Epic but I believe it's very important to mention here because it is an indication of the general political sentiment against Apple:

Apple's 'monopoly power' over iPhone app distribution gives it outsized profits, antitrust committee says

The 450-page report from the Democratic majority staff of the House Judiciary Committee looks at Apple's control of its App Store, the only way for consumers to install apps or software on an iPhone, along with Apple's proclivity to buy smaller technology companies and turn them into features...

www.cnbc.com

• The House Judiciary subcommittee released a report on Tuesday that said that Apple has “monopoly power” over software distribution on iPhones.
• It says that this power allows Apple to generate large profits from the App Store and extract rents from developers.
• The 450-page report from the Democratic majority staff is the culmination of a 16-month investigation that also examined competitive practices at Amazon, Facebook, and Google and included the CEOs of the four giants testifying over videoconference in August.

Regardless of the trial's outcome I don't see how tech companies will avoid regulation.

 

[Le Pertti]

It's not directly related to the court battle between Apple and Epic but I believe it's very important to mention here because it is an indication of the general political sentiment against Apple:

Apple's 'monopoly power' over iPhone app distribution gives it outsized profits, antitrust committee says

The 450-page report from the Democratic majority staff of the House Judiciary Committee looks at Apple's control of its App Store, the only way for consumers to install apps or software on an iPhone, along with Apple's proclivity to buy smaller technology companies and turn them into features...

www.cnbc.com

Regardless of the trial's outcome I don't see how tech companies will avoid regulation.

Yeah that is huge! Not only for apple but that goes for every device that doesn't have a fully open OS.

 

[Alexandros]

Yeah that is huge! Not only for apple but that goes for every device that doesn't have a fully open OS.

Most definitely.

 

[Stone Ocean]

So this could start applying to consoles as well?

 

[Le Pertti]

So this could start applying to consoles as well?

It should apply to absolutely everything, that is a closed system.

 

[Alexandros]

So this could start applying to consoles as well?

If governments around the world decide to regulate gatekeepers through legislation, absolutely, but the report itself is not legally binding.

 

[Alexandros]

As expected, the permanent injunction is the same as the temporary one. Unreal is in, Fortnite is out.

Epic judge permanently restrains Apple from blocking Unreal Engine, but won’t force Fortnite

The decision makes permanent the temporary restraining order ruling from last month.

www.theverge.com

 

[Stone Ocean]

Good, no more using people who have nothing to do with this as cannon fodder.

 

[gabbo]

Good, no more using people who have nothing to do with this as cannon fodder.

You say that like Epic won't try to spin this ruling to do just that

 

[Phoenix RISING]

It's not directly related to the court battle between Apple and Epic but I believe it's very important to mention here because it is an indication of the general political sentiment against Apple:

Apple's 'monopoly power' over iPhone app distribution gives it outsized profits, antitrust committee says

The 450-page report from the Democratic majority staff of the House Judiciary Committee looks at Apple's control of its App Store, the only way for consumers to install apps or software on an iPhone, along with Apple's proclivity to buy smaller technology companies and turn them into features...

www.cnbc.com

Regardless of the trial's outcome I don't see how tech companies will avoid regulation.

IDK. Conservatives hate regulation and they're about to get their SCOTUS justice to make it 6-3.

 

[Arc]

While this case has mostly went dark since the main trial isn't until May, there was a new legal filing on Epic's side that was pretty funny:

Epic says Apple ‘has no rights to the fruits of Epic’s labor’ in latest filing

Apple kicked Fortnite off the App Store in August

www.theverge.com

Using their logic, Epic shouldn't take any percentage of sales on EGS since they're getting the fruits of others labor.

 

[Alexandros]

While this case has mostly went dark since the main trial isn't until May, there was a new legal filing on Epic's side that was pretty funny:

Epic says Apple ‘has no rights to the fruits of Epic’s labor’ in latest filing

Apple kicked Fortnite off the App Store in August

www.theverge.com

Using their logic, Epic shouldn't take any percentage of sales on EGS since they're getting the fruits of others labor.

I'm sure people have already drawn similar comparisons but I read that line in the voice of Andrew Ryan from Bioshock.

 

[Le Pertti]

But Epic has the right to all of Apples labor?

 

[Alexandros]

But Epic has the right to all of Apples labor?

Epic has all the rights. The best rights. The biggest rights.

 

[Arc]

Apple is creating a program that lowers the store cut to 15% for developers that gross less than $1 million a year.

I think this is a pretty clever move by Apple. It shoots a big hole into Epic's argument that 30% smothers small devs and at the same time doesn't affect Epic at all. Epic's main argument is now about payment processors which primarily only affects Epic and makes their noble crusade look much less altruistic.

The only downside is that I can feel Tim's smug tweet coming at any moment.

 

[Wok]

Apple is creating a program that lowers the store cut to 15% for developers that gross less than $1 million a year.

I think this is a pretty clever move by Apple. It shoots a big hole into Epic's argument that 30% smothers small devs and at the same time doesn't affect Epic at all. Epic's main argument is now about payment processors which primarily only affects Epic and makes their noble crusade look much less altruistic.

The only downside is that I can feel Tim's smug tweet coming at any moment.

It is funny because Apple's answer to Epic is the opposite of Valve's program (which was to lower the cut for games like Witcher 3).

 

[gabbo]

Apple is creating a program that lowers the store cut to 15% for developers that gross less than $1 million a year.

I think this is a pretty clever move by Apple. It shoots a big hole into Epic's argument that 30% smothers small devs and at the same time doesn't affect Epic at all. Epic's main argument is now about payment processors which primarily only affects Epic and makes their noble crusade look much less altruistic.

The only downside is that I can feel Tim's smug tweet coming at any moment.

Do any of the big three/pc DD stores blink first or do we see this all the way through with Epic using this as the cudgel?

 

[Arc]

It is funny because it Apple's answer to Epic is the opposite of Valve's program (which was to lower the cut for games like Witcher 3).

Valve did that to appease the big boys since the PC market is more competitive and major publishers can simply make their own store.

Do any of the big three/pc DD stores blink first or do we see this all the way through with Epic using this as the cudgel?

I hope Valve will eventually make some sort of move. Maybe Valve implements a progressive fee system where the first $1 million has a lower rate and then it goes to the normal rate until their $10/25/50 million markers (sorta like a bell curve). The percentage probably won't be as generous as Apple, but it would likely be automated compared to Apple where you have to manually apply to their program.

 

[curi0usBystander]

Apple is creating a program that lowers the store cut to 15% for developers that gross less than $1 million a year.

I think this is a pretty clever move by Apple. It shoots a big hole into Epic's argument that 30% smothers small devs and at the same time doesn't affect Epic at all. Epic's main argument is now about payment processors which primarily only affects Epic and makes their noble crusade look much less altruistic.

The only downside is that I can feel Tim's smug tweet coming at any moment.

So if on december 31st (or whenever the last day is) you reach 1M but then the next year you don't reach it you spend a whole year paying 30% and then you'd need to manually reapply ?

 

[Alexandros]

Apple is creating a program that lowers the store cut to 15% for developers that gross less than $1 million a year.

I think this is a pretty clever move by Apple. It shoots a big hole into Epic's argument that 30% smothers small devs and at the same time doesn't affect Epic at all. Epic's main argument is now about payment processors which primarily only affects Epic and makes their noble crusade look much less altruistic.

The only downside is that I can feel Tim's smug tweet coming at any moment.

Apple reducing the cut for small devs while continuing to milk Tim Sweeney would be the best (and funniest) outcome.

 

[Arc]

Apple Halves Its App Store Fee for the Smaller Companies (Published 2020)

App makers bridled at the 30 percent commission, which has drawn scrutiny from regulators looking into antitrust claims.

www.nytimes.com

Tim Sweeney, Epic’s chief executive and another of Apple’s toughest critics, also accused Apple of trying to divide developers. By charging smaller companies less, “Apple is hoping to remove enough critics that they can get away with their blockade on competition and 30 percent tax on most in-app purchases,” he said in a statement. “But consumers will still pay inflated prices marked up by the Apple tax.”

 

[curi0usBystander]

“But consumers will still pay inflated prices marked up by the Apple tax.”

I'm stitll not convinced that a lower cut would lower prices (aside from an ocasional stunt).

 

[lashman]

I'm stitll not convinced that a lower cut would lower prices (aside from an ocasional stunt).

it wouldn't ... that's not how capitalism works ... and anyone who claims it would is either naive or just lying

 

[Swenhir]

Apple Halves Its App Store Fee for the Smaller Companies (Published 2020)

App makers bridled at the 30 percent commission, which has drawn scrutiny from regulators looking into antitrust claims.

www.nytimes.com

"They are making so good of a point that the chorus of people criticizing them is dwindling!"

And yeah, companies are about maximizing profit, and the old capitalism definition of them having to deal with the opposing party's wants has long since stopped being relevant or even realistic with the kind of complexity and power dynamics involved.

 

[Alexandros]

Apple Halves Its App Store Fee for the Smaller Companies (Published 2020)

App makers bridled at the 30 percent commission, which has drawn scrutiny from regulators looking into antitrust claims.

www.nytimes.com

I get the feeling that this is the response Apple was hoping for.

 

[ISee]

Good tactical move from Apple.
More elegant and long term effective than mocking your enemy with a commercial, that nobody talks about anymore.
Feels like Epic is playing checkers, while apple moved on to chess.

 

[Arc]

Epic Games founder Tim Sweeney likens fight against Apple to fight for civil rights | TechCrunch

Earlier today, Apple announced it will reduce the App Store commissions for smaller businesses so that developers earning less than $1 million per year

techcrunch.com

It’s everybody’s duty to fight. It’s not just an option that somebody’s lawyers might decide, but it’s actually our duty to fight that. If we had adhered to all of Apple’s terms and, you know, taken their 30% payment processing fees and passed the cost along to our customers, then that would be Epic colluding with Apple to restrain competition on iOS and to inflate prices for consumers. So going along with Apple’s agreement is what is wrong. And that’s why Epic mounted a challenge to this, and you know you can hear of any, and [inaudible] to civil rights fights, where there were actual laws on the books, and the laws were wrong. And people disobeyed them, and it was not wrong to disobey them because to go along with them would be collusion to make them status quo.”

 

[Swenhir]

Epic Games founder Tim Sweeney likens fight against Apple to fight for civil rights | TechCrunch

Earlier today, Apple announced it will reduce the App Store commissions for smaller businesses so that developers earning less than $1 million per year

techcrunch.com

Well, yeah, but the character of Epic in this, as well as the demographic they attempted to enroll on their behalf was and remains atrocious. You could make the point that if we are going to help a company - single, because they never talked about opening up the iOS ecosystem entirely, just for them - then they ought to pay these kids for the privilege.

Seriously, walled gardens are the antithesis of what computing is supposed to be in my opinion but painting Epic as cut out of the same cloth as people who risk life and limb in civil disobedience is slightly too Hail Corporate for me.

 

[curi0usBystander]

Epic Games founder Tim Sweeney likens fight against Apple to fight for civil rights | TechCrunch

Earlier today, Apple announced it will reduce the App Store commissions for smaller businesses so that developers earning less than $1 million per year

techcrunch.com

I ... I ... look ... I

 

[ISee]

Tim is on a role on twitter. His talent to kiss his own ass is impressive.

 

[CommodoreKong]

Tim is on a role on twitter. His talent to kiss his own ass is impressive.

Tim is truely at Trump levels of delusion if he thinks his stupid contract dispute (of a contract he willingly agreed to) is in any way equivalent to civil rights.

 

[Arc]

The depressing thing is he's doubling down. Sheesh.

 

[Alexandros]

The single good thing about Twitter is that it facilitates rich assholes making a fool of themselves.

 

[C-Dub]

How out of touch with reality do you have to be to make a statement like that?

What a self-absorbed dipshit.

 

[gabbo]

Tim is on a role on twitter. His talent to kiss his own ass is impressive.

I mean clearly we've all forgotten MLK's famous "App devs get an 85% Cut' speech from the Mall, and Tim is trying to remind us.
People fighting back against physical violence, death, and a racist system that was designed to see them as less than human is clearly on the same level as a billion dollar company putting their own payment method in their billion dollar mobile app against the terms of a business contract terms they entered into willingly and as equals.

We're obviously not seeing the macro level here guys.
Fuck you Tim Sweeney. Fuck you and your ego. you rode in on.