|OT| The PC Hardware Thread -- Buy/Upgrade/Ask/Answer

[EdwardTivrusky]

My new mobo is shipping! Not picked up by DPD yet but it's on it's way after a week!
Now i just have an evening of recabling my PC to look forward to.
I'm getting too old for this, i think the next PC i buy will be a pre-built jobbie as i've spent 20+ years building my own machines and i don't find it as enchanting as i used to. lol.

 

[Durante]

My new mobo is shipping! Not picked up by DPD yet but it's on it's way after a week!
Now i just have an evening of recabling my PC to look forward to.
I'm getting too old for this, i think the next PC i buy will be a pre-built jobbie as i've spent 20+ years building my own machines and i don't find it as enchanting as i used to. lol.

Heh, I've thought the same before, but every time I consider it and look at the pre-built options I still go "I guess I'll do it myself"

 

[EdwardTivrusky]

Yeah, i know. i look at the pre-built options and think but i want a different motherboard, and case, and gfx card and... buy the bits and build it myself.
It's just that i know the new motherboard's layout will be different enough to make me recable my PC and i don't want to. It's BORING!

 

[Parsnip]

Cabling is one of the reasons I moved back to a bigger case. More room behind the mobo tray to hide everything I don't want to deal with.
Also the top comes completely off so sticking that cpu power cable in while the heatsink is already mounted was actually easy. Truly a blessing.

 

[Durante]

Yeah, having the top of the case easily removable is a huge QoL improvement. It's something I'm actively looking for when choosing a case.

 

[C-Dub]

My 5800X finally arrived!

 

[EdwardTivrusky]

Nice. My motherboard and RAM turned up first thing this morning too. Got my fingers crossed it solves my random BSOD issues.

 

[C-Dub]

Managed to put it all together this evening. Never mounted an AIO and I've never installed an AMD CPU either, so it was a learning experience for me.

But it boots, all the fans spin and I've managed to install Windows, so I must've done something right.

 

[ScreamingTrees]

Managed to put it all together this evening. Never mounted an AIO and I've never installed an AMD CPU either, so it was a learning experience for me.

But it boots, all the fans spin and I've managed to install Windows, so I must've done something right.

Mounting the AIO was difficult for me, built loads of computers years ago but it had been a while and I'd never installed an AIO before. mounting it at the top with the CPU power cable was a bit of a struggle but eventually got everything on. My cable management is a disaster behind the motherboard, looks neat in the main part!

 

[didamangi]

Yeah, having the top of the case easily removable is a huge QoL improvement. It's something I'm actively looking for when choosing a case.

Yeah, the Define 7 and Meshify 2 removable top panel design is pretty sweet. Building a PC in it must be the easiest thing ever.

 

[EdwardTivrusky]

I'm sure you all care but i need to have a bit of a moan and feel sorry for myself. Put the new motherboard in last night, yay! All seems well aside from it not picking up my M2 boot drive! ... and of course this motherboard has the most awkward bloody M2 drive covers known to man or beast so it's going to be a total pain-in-the-ass to dismantle stuff so i can see if the M2 drive has slipped when i was putting on the stupid designed heatsink.

Hopefully i can just wiggle the drive and it works and i can get some gaming done this weekend. I really hope the M" drive hasn't died on me. I'll be very unhappy.

And i need to fuss-arse about with the RGB but that can wait for a few days. I just can't be bothered fiddling with this PC for much longer.

Rant over.

 

[Durante]

I generally just don't put those "heatsinks" on. I have some decent airflow in my case and I don't run 32-depth queued full NVME loads for hours (or even minutes) on end.

 

[EdwardTivrusky]

I generally just don't put those "heatsinks" on. I have some decent airflow in my case and I don't run 32-depth queued full NVME loads for hours (or even minutes) on end.

It might be removed and left to one side to be honest. it's a really fiddly design where the heatsinks don't slot into anything to keep them stable so i think it wiggled a bit and moved the M2 drive slightly even though it's screwed in. I'm just having an annoying day at work on top of very little sleep and the prospect of fiddling with tiny PC screws tonight instead of getting my Cyberpunk on. Grrrrr.

 

[EdwardTivrusky]

Update: okay, this is confusing the hell out of me now. I cannot set boot devices and on one BIOS screen the M2 drives are marked as "Not Present" yet under the Advanced-NVME controller menu i can see it's detected the Samsung 970 and even initiates a self-test successfully. So it's detected in one menu but marked as not present in another menu. My brain hurts.

Update 2: Stupid manufacturers changing terminology every 5 minutes. Stick to the same naming standards, please!
OMFG I've finally found it. I have to go into Boot options and enable CSM. PC is now booting. Now to sort out the old drivers and install new ones and see if i can get a demanding game to run for longer than 10 minutes! Wish me luck.

 

[ISee]

GPU still not shipped.
Should've gone with a "plain" Founders Edition.
If there is no news by Monday I'm canceling my order. At this point I can wait and see if 3080Ti rumors are true.

By the way, it's not just PC and console stuff that's hard to get, it's legos, certain toys for kid, kitchen machines...

 

[Parsnip]

In terms of deliveries, we're experiencing better availablity on specific series, these are RTX 3060 Ti, 3070 and 3090. We're seeing bigger shipments incoming, and have from time to time cards available in stock and ready to ship. However the RTX 3080 remains a challenge, and you should expect additional waiting time on your orders.

From Proshop's "RTX situation report", they recently changed how they show the outstanding orders in it too, and for example the Asus 3080 TUF (non-OC) card has 1025 outstanding customer orders, about 400 of which are still from the launch day. There are even cards there that they have gotten 0 units of. What a mess.

Looking at some of the pricing around here, some of the 3070 pricing is almost reasonable. Gaming X Trio from MSI can be had for just over 600€, the MSRP is $560 so doing the math of conversion and vat, not great, not terrible I guess.

 

[Firewithin]

5800x acquired!! local microcenter had some new stock and got lucky and got one while everyone else was getting gpus instead.

now to find my next hardest part in stock somewhere....new case lol

 

[Durante]

From Proshop's "RTX situation report", they recently changed how they show the outstanding orders in it too, and for example the Asus 3080 TUF (non-OC) card has 1025 outstanding customer orders, about 400 of which are still from the launch day. There are even cards there that they have gotten 0 units of. What a mess.

Looking at some of the pricing around here, some of the 3070 pricing is almost reasonable. Gaming X Trio from MSI can be had for just over 600€, the MSRP is $560 so doing the math of conversion and vat, not great, not terrible I guess.

I think the best chance to get a 3080 in EU is to sign up for notebooksbillger.de FE notifications. There still seems to be a drop roughly weekly, and it's starting to last a bit longer each time.

 

[EdwardTivrusky]

Well, for those of you that care here's an update.

Thanks, ISee , This motherboard is working fine even if i'm not using any of it's swanky OC features. PC is currently running 10°C cooler than on the old board and the fans aren't ramping up to insane decibels every time i run anything. No BSOD, no unexpected app crashes, no temp issues or fan speed wierdness. Yeah, my old mobo was definitely fubar.

The only concern i have and i had it with the old board too is that Ryzen Master shows my EDC value in red saying "98% of EDC" it varies up and down but reading around i see articles saying it's bad and articles saying it's fine so any of you have any ideas? Is it ok or is it bad?

I played Fenyx for 6 hours yesterday and had no problems even when i switched out to the desktop to watch youtube while having lunch.

Oh and note to self DOCP is AMD version of XMP.

 

[ISee]

"98% of EDC

Install the AMD chipset drivers and make sure to set the power plan settings to either Ryzen Balanced or Ryzen High Performance after wards.

https://www.amd.com/de/support/chipsets/socket-fp5-mobile/amd-ryzen-and-athlon-mobile-chipset

 

[EdwardTivrusky]

ISee Yup, i forgot i checked and changed the power plan yesterday and forgot to check it after a reboot, sigh.
I had to change the Minimum CPU to 10% because the AMD Ryzen settings have it set to 100% Min and Max and i'm not having that.
I just fired up Ryzen Master and it's fluctuating between 60%-90% now so i'm a lot happier about things.

I'm running AMD Chipset Drivers 2.09.28 from the ASUS site, i might upgrade to 2.10 from the AMD site later on.

 

[Firewithin]

How does this look? i would still need a PSU which the one im thinking about wasnt on there for some reason and then just a couple extra fans for the case.

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/T4WPQD

 

[didamangi]

The GeForce RTX 3080 Ti comes later, the RTX 3060 earlier and the GTX 1060 3GB gets a nice successor | Exclusive | igor´sLAB

Let’s start with the long awaited GeForce RTX 3080 Ti, which has turned out to be more and more probable, but whose appearance should be further delayed. If I can believe my own sources…

www.igorslab.de

3080ti 20gb, 3060 6gb and 12 gb incoming, maybe.

How does this look? i would still need a PSU which the one im thinking about wasnt on there for some reason and then just a couple extra fans for the case.

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/T4WPQD

Looks good. For $20 more I would replace the ram with this one though. faster speed and latency. but that's just me.

 

[Jav]

What PSU would be needed (in W) for the rtx 3000 series?

 

[didamangi]

What PSU would be needed (in W) for the rtx 3000 series?

Nvidia recommends at least a 750 watt PSU for 3080 and 3090.

This is what Asus recommends though:

Although you can cut that down 50 watt or 100 watt with undertvolting + overclocking. Which I do recommend if you have some time. (for 3070,3080 and 3090 cards)

 

[Jav]

Nvidia recommends at least a 750 watt PSU for 3080 and 3090.

This is what Asus recommends though:

Although you can cut that down 50 watt or 100 watt with undertvolting + overclocking. Which I do recommend if you have some time. (for 3070,3080 and 3090 cards)

I currently have a 750W one so I think I should be okay? Don't know a thing about undervolting tho.

 

[didamangi]

I currently have a 750W one so I think I should be okay? Don't know a thing about undervolting tho.

You're fine.

It's easy enough, but you do have to spend time making sure it's stable.

But If you're happy with the stock temp and performance and the 50w-100w doesn't make a difference bill wise, Or if you don't want the hassle, then just leave it at stock.

Edit: I forgot to ask what your card is. some 3080 card do have higher power limit than others, so at default it can suck up to 370 watt rather than 320 watt for example.

 

[Jav]

You're fine.

It's easy enough, but you do have to spend time making sure it's stable.

But If you're happy with the stock temp and performance and the 50w-100w doesn't make a difference bill wise, Or if you don't want the hassle, then just leave it at stock.

Edit: I forgot to ask what your card is. some 3080 card do have higher power limit than others, so at default it can suck up to 370 watt rather than 320 watt for example.

I didn't buy one of the 3000 series yet, mainly because I didn't know if i had enough with my power supply.

Currently I'm with 750w, a 1050ti and an i7-7700. Probably the 3090 is out of my league, the rest will be a matter of looking the one that fits better to my capabilities.

 

[Theswweet]

Waiting for RDNA2 restocks... I don't need RT immediately, and after the way that nVidia fucked with Hardware Unboxed I'd rather support Team Red for now. 6800 XT, here I come! Eventually...

 

[Firewithin]

well i think i got everything i need ordered and with any luck i maybe able to build over long christmas holiday coming up next week

 

[BlueOdin]

Don’t know if this is the place to ask this but I will anyway: After recently playing Gears 5 I really got the urge to get myself a HDR monitor. Some scenes in the game looked like they were just made for it. I know about it being not so great on PC but I also haven’t read about problems for a while.

Is it okay to buy one now or is it still better to wait? Can I just go by the rtings recommendations or is there something else to consider?

 

[ISee]

Don’t know if this is the place to ask this but I will anyway: After recently playing Gears 5 I really got the urge to get myself a HDR monitor. Some scenes in the game looked like they were just made for it. I know about it being not so great on PC but I also haven’t read about problems for a while.

Is it okay to buy one now or is it still better to wait? Can I just go by the rtings recommendations or is there something else to consider?

In general, HDR on PC is not a problem and implementation is "just" as good as on consoles.
The problem is most PC Monitors lack a worthwhile amount of dimming zones and brightness levels that are necessary for a good HDR experience.
The PC displays that are worthy of the HDR branding are stupidly expansive and you get significantly more out of even cheaper and bigger TVs from a value perspective.

Finding out what a good HDR PC Display on PC is pretty simple currently: They are all branded as G-Sync Ultimate.

NVIDIA GeForce G-SYNC Gaming Monitors

Search for GeForce G-SYNC gaming monitors.

www.nvidia.com

But watch out: They are all using HMDI 2.0 and rely on Display Port for VRR, which would be a problem if you plan to use your PC display with a console for VRR in the future.

There is also the Free Sync 2 HDR branding, but I've not encountered one with the necessary specs to be called good enough. Some of them are there, in terms of color capabilities, but the lack of dimming zones and peak brightness is a deal breaker.

If I'd currently have to pick I'd take the Aces Predator X35 or Asus PG35VQ. Awesome displays, the best out there imo. But they cost 2500€,
The cheapest option would be the Asus PG329Q, but as said: it lacks the dimming zones and brightness is only "HDR 600", but it is only 750€.

In general: I'd wait for the whole HDMI 2.1 disaster that is currently happening to quiet down and for new products to arrive. Especially in regards to receivers and TVs. Compatibility and functionality is kind of a mess anyway currently.
On the other side: I'm dancing to the "wait for HDR on PC displays" music for three years now.

 

[BlueOdin]

In general, HDR on PC is not a problem and implementation is "just" as good as on consoles.
The problem is most PC Monitors lack a worthwhile amount of dimming zones and brightness levels that are necessary for a good HDR experience.
The PC displays that are worthy of the HDR branding are stupidly expansive and you get significantly more out of even cheaper and bigger TVs from a value perspective.

Finding out what a good HDR PC Display on PC is pretty simple currently: They are all branded as G-Sync Ultimate.

NVIDIA GeForce G-SYNC Gaming Monitors

Search for GeForce G-SYNC gaming monitors.

www.nvidia.com

But watch out: They are all using HMDI 2.0 and rely on Display Port for VRR, which would be a problem if you plan to use your PC display with a console for VRR in the future.

There is also the Free Sync 2 HDR branding, but I've not encountered one with the necessary specs to be called good enough. Some of them are there, in terms of color capabilities, but the lack of dimming zones and peak brightness is a deal breaker.

If I'd currently have to pick I'd take the Aces Predator X35 or Asus PG35VQ. Awesome displays, the best out there imo. But they cost 2500€,
The cheapest option would be the Asus PG329Q, but as said: it lacks the dimming zones and brightness is only "HDR 600", but it is only 750€.

In general: I'd wait for the whole HDMI 2.1 disaster that is currently happening to quiet down and for new products to arrive. Especially in regards to receivers and TVs. Compatibility and functionality is kind of a mess anyway currently.
On the other side: I'm dancing to the "wait for HDR on PC displays" music for three years now.

Thank you! I am looking into it currently and it is a nightmare. Worse than buying a TV for me. I think the monitor I am currently looking at the most is the Asus VG27AQ models since they seem to support HDR10 but even that seems spotty. But I also don't know if I want to wait because after 2 years I am a bit dissatisfied with my Omen 27" TN panel. So I would like to get a new main monitor.

And 2500€ is way out of my budget

 

[ISee]

Asus VG27AQ

It's a good display and a massive upgrade over a TN panel imo.

But it is "just" an 8bit panel, peak brightness is "just" 350 cd/m². Calling it HDR10 is far stretched. The situation with branding was already bad when 1080p TVs came along and "HD Ready" branding was useless. But the HDR branding is even worse today. If it can accept the signal and report back as HDR10 compatible: It get's the sticker, but in return the sticker doesn't mean anything.

27" Asus TUF Gaming VG27AQ - Specifications

Specifications of Asus TUF Gaming VG27AQ. Display: 27 in, AHVA IPS, W-LED, 2560 x 1440 pixels, Viewing angles (H/V): 178 ° / 178 °, Brightness: 320 cd/m², Static contrast: 1200 : 1, Refresh rate: 48 Hz - 165 Hz, sRGB: 99 %, Adobe RGB: 71 %, NTSC: 72 %, Dimensions: 620 x 363 x 66 mm, Weight: 3.5 kg.

www.displayspecifications.com

That said: it is good for that price and the SDR picture will be great. I'm sorry for being a HDR joy killer, but it is as it is. I also wish there were descend HDR Displays for ~500€. But there is nothing.

As said, maybe the PG329Q has a chance of being half descend, though you are still making compromises. But it has a true 10bit panel, 600 cd/m² brightness and is 32" instead of 27".
But 300€ extra are not a small amount.

31.9" Asus ROG Swift PG329Q - Specifications

Specifications of Asus ROG Swift PG329Q. Display: 31.9 in, IPS, W-LED, 2560 x 1440 pixels, Viewing angles (H/V): 178 ° / 178 °, Brightness: 600 cd/m², Static contrast: 1000 : 1, Refresh rate: 48 Hz - 175 Hz, sRGB: 160 %, Dimensions: 728.18 x 428.52 x 87.12 mm, Weight: 5.9 kg.

www.displayspecifications.com

 

[BlueOdin]

It's a good display and a massive upgrade over a TN panel imo.

But it is "just" an 8bit panel, peak brightness is "just" 350 cd/m². Calling it HDR10 is far stretched. The situation with branding was already bad when 1080p TVs came along and "HD Ready" branding was useless. But the HDR branding is even worse today. If it can accept the signal and report back as HDR10 compatible: It get's the sticker, but in return the sticker doesn't mean anything.

27" Asus TUF Gaming VG27AQ - Specifications

Specifications of Asus TUF Gaming VG27AQ. Display: 27 in, AHVA IPS, W-LED, 2560 x 1440 pixels, Viewing angles (H/V): 178 ° / 178 °, Brightness: 320 cd/m², Static contrast: 1200 : 1, Refresh rate: 48 Hz - 165 Hz, sRGB: 99 %, Adobe RGB: 71 %, NTSC: 72 %, Dimensions: 620 x 363 x 66 mm, Weight: 3.5 kg.

www.displayspecifications.com

That said: it is good for that price and the SDR picture will be great. I'm sorry for being a HDR joy killer, but it is as it is. I also wish there were descend HDR Displays for ~500€. But there is nothing.

As said, maybe the PG329Q has a chance of being half descend, though you are still making compromises. But it has a true 10bit panel, 600 cd/m² brightness and is 32" instead of 27".
But 300€ extra are not a small amount.

31.9" Asus ROG Swift PG329Q - Specifications

Specifications of Asus ROG Swift PG329Q. Display: 31.9 in, IPS, W-LED, 2560 x 1440 pixels, Viewing angles (H/V): 178 ° / 178 °, Brightness: 600 cd/m², Static contrast: 1000 : 1, Refresh rate: 48 Hz - 175 Hz, sRGB: 160 %, Dimensions: 728.18 x 428.52 x 87.12 mm, Weight: 5.9 kg.

www.displayspecifications.com

Thanks! Putting the PG329Q also on the short list. I probably wouldn't get one before March either way. Maybe there will be an announcement before that since there is also CES soon but I don't have much hope. Guess I will keep calm for three months for now and then ask again and fall down a hole.

 

[gabbo]

Nvidia recommends at least a 750 watt PSU for 3080 and 3090.

This is what Asus recommends though:

Although you can cut that down 50 watt or 100 watt with undertvolting + overclocking. Which I do recommend if you have some time. (for 3070,3080 and 3090 cards)

There's a nice deal on an EVGA 750W over at newegg.ca, and I will need a new PSU for my eventual build. Assume this chart would be comparable for the Radeon 6000 line of GPU with the Ryzen CPU as well? I'm assuming a 5800X/6800XT would be fine with a 750W if im not OC'ing?

 

[didamangi]

There's a nice deal on an EVGA 750W over at newegg.ca, and I will need a new PSU for my eventual build. Assume this chart would be comparable for the Radeon 6000 line of GPU with the Ryzen CPU as well? I'm assuming a 5800X/6800XT would be fine with a 750W if im not OC'ing?

Yes. The 6800xt is a 300 watt card and 6800 is a 250 watt card. 750w is more than fine

 

[Firewithin]

my last part ive been waiting on (the MB of course) comes tomorrow which mean if all goes well ill have a new PC this weekend

 

[BlackRainbowFT]

I know this isn't exactly the right place, but I didn't want to create a topic just for my question. It's hardware related but not strictly "PC".

I'm a TOTAL noob when it comes to audio and whenever I read up on it, it reads like mumbo jumbo.

I have a Samsung TV and I'm using the integrated speakers... the problem is that whenever I play 5.1 content the downmix is atrocious and the dialogue is way too quiet. I've tried fiddling around with ALL the settings I could find (Samsung TV, Nvidia Shield, Plex). Nothing seems to be working (I've tried: "night mode" on my TV, boosting audio volume on Plex, forcing stereo sound on the Shield, etc.).

I know that the best solution would be to actually buy a 5.1 system (in order to have a proper center channel), but I really don't want one...

So my question is: is there a thingamajig that allows the user to selectively boost specific channels and downmix 7.1/5.1 audio?

Thanks!

 

[NarohDethan]

So I just found out this gem on PC part picker regarding my setup

The Gigabyte Z490 AORUS ELITE AC ATX LGA1200 Motherboard has an additional 4-pin ATX power connector but the EVGA BQ 600 W 80+ Bronze Certified Semi-modular ATX Power Supply does not. This connector is used to supply additional 12V current to the motherboard. While the system will likely still run without it, higher current demands such as extreme overclocking or large video card current draws may require it.


I have a 10700 (not K) and a 2070 Super. Will this bring trouble in the future?

 

[didamangi]

So I just found out this gem on PC part picker regarding my setup

The Gigabyte Z490 AORUS ELITE AC ATX LGA1200 Motherboard has an additional 4-pin ATX power connector but the EVGA BQ 600 W 80+ Bronze Certified Semi-modular ATX Power Supply does not. This connector is used to supply additional 12V current to the motherboard. While the system will likely still run without it, higher current demands such as extreme overclocking or large video card current draws may require it.


I have a 10700 (not K) and a 2070 Super. Will this bring trouble in the future?

Don't worry about it. The 8 pin EPS connector can give over 300 watts to your cpu. Unless we're talking sub zero LN2 extreme overclocking, you'll be fine with just the 8 pin even if you have a 10900k and overclocked it with AIO/air cooler, because you're going to be hitting the temp limit before you reach over 300 watts of power to your CPU.

Don't worry about the gpu either because they'll draw from their own power cable as well as from the motherboard.

 

[Parsnip]

I don't think I've ever seen an extra 4 pin connector in addition to the usual 8 pin. Had to actually read the post again just to confirm that I wasn't misunderstanding. Learn something new every day.

 

[NarohDethan]

Don't worry about it. The 8 pin EPS connector can give over 300 watts to your cpu. Unless we're talking sub zero LN2 extreme overclocking, you'll be fine with just the 8 pin even if you have a 10900k and overclocked it with AIO/air cooler, because you're going to be hitting the temp limit before you reach over 300 watts of power to your CPU.

Don't worry about the gpu either because they'll draw from their own power cable as well as from the motherboard.

Thanks!

 

[Knurek]

Is it worth updating my (aging) 4790K setup to 10600K? Or am I better off waiting for Rocket Lake?
(Ryzens 5xxx are too expensive for the gains they bring, and are also pretty much out of stock or severly overpriced here).

 

[didamangi]

Is it worth updating my (aging) 4790K setup to 10600K? Or am I better off waiting for Rocket Lake?
(Ryzens 5xxx are too expensive for the gains they bring, and are also pretty much out of stock or severly overpriced here).

Rocket Lake is right around the corner you'd better of waiting for it. Yeah, Ryzen 5xxx is even more of an unicorn than the 3xxx and 68xx gpu in my region.

It's funny how Intel is the value champion here (Indonesia) for new cheap system rather than AMD.

From:

 

[C-Dub]

Is it worth updating my (aging) 4790K setup to 10600K? Or am I better off waiting for Rocket Lake?
(Ryzens 5xxx are too expensive for the gains they bring, and are also pretty much out of stock or severly overpriced here).

Nah. You probably want something with PCIe Gen4 support. You may not need it right now, but I reckon we'll start seeing games requiring NVMe drives before too long, and while a Gen3 will probably cut it (a good one is as theoretically fast as the Xbox Series S/X SSD), I reckon its better to just give yourself some flexibility in the future. You'll thank yourself that you waited.

 

[Parsnip]

Speaking of SSD's, is there a good/really good program that can automatically estimate the life that the drive has left in it?

 

[Knurek]

Speaking of SSD's, is there a good/really good program that can automatically estimate the life that the drive has left in it?

CrystalDiskInfo

 

[madjoki]

I prefer HD Sentinel, with it's history much better tool, very well worth 0€ I paid for it from dev giveaway

 

[Parsnip]

HD Sentinel, even the free one, is what I was looking for since crystaldiskinfo didn't give me an estimation like over 1000 days or whatever, just a percentage on my newer drive and not even that on my older drive.