Ah yeah of course I know what we are, but as Rosenkrantz said, if the gaming press and gaming industry in general see us as that, then that's what we will be seen as. And yeah complete shitty situation.
News Epic Games Store
- Thread starter Blizniak
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Personally, I'm really disappointed in the industry. Obviously, I'm not going to stop buying games or drop the hobby entirely, but the situation made me, I don't know, thick? Like, if a year ago I was rooting for devs to get better conditions and treatment, today I can honestly say that after witnessing their attitude towards us, the people without whom this industry wouldn't exist, I don't give a shit. I know it's unfair and there are devs who very much care about their audience, but it's hard to believe in when all you see is contempt and attempts to silence any remotely negative opinions.
I think the dev that hurts the most was Heart Machine for me. I guess ever since Epic laid their feet on the table and called dibs, it's been an exercise in differentiating art from the artist and embracing that good people aren't perfect.
It's been a bummer and I wish it was all over yesterday.
It's been a bummer and I wish it was all over yesterday.
There is a lot of circle jerking between Tim and the Ooblets guy, there are sellouts like Randy, Journalists that are willingly blind and do propaganda because they're friends with certain studios, console fans routing for everything anti PC, Steam haters.
Those are people that have an agenda or a financial interest and are irrelevant to the equation.
It doesn't matter what they think, they won't be paying the bills, they aren't costumers. Let them speak, they aren't effecting anybodys opinion. This isn't 4th dimensional chess they are playing. It's just screaming in an isolated bubble.
Their message is clear:
Buy from the EGS or the ooblet dev that used and doubled down on a 4chan slur against disabled people will call you a women hater.
Stop buying from Steam or Randy, the cocaine addict that is always lying and mistreating his employees will block you on twitter.
Tim will really dislike you and question your intelligence and adult hut. Also use whataboutism, the most clever discussion strategy.
I'm living in fear now, I can't live with those people disliking me. What will I ever do?
Obviously nothing, because not one intelligent, pro EGS argument was made in the last couple of days. Slurs, obvious money orientated propaganda, agendas have been voiced, and personal interests defended. No costumer that has trouble with third party exclusivity was convinced and turned sides because of this,
So why do you all worry? They are reaching incredible levels of stupidity. and look more desperat than ever before. This is a PR disaster and people are seeing it. Let The Schreiers and the GreySons write what they want, costumers aren't as stupid as they think.
The Ooblets Devs are a dead studio walking, once Tim stops paying them. No pity from me, enjoy your 7 minutes of fame.
Those are people that have an agenda or a financial interest and are irrelevant to the equation.
It doesn't matter what they think, they won't be paying the bills, they aren't costumers. Let them speak, they aren't effecting anybodys opinion. This isn't 4th dimensional chess they are playing. It's just screaming in an isolated bubble.
Their message is clear:
Buy from the EGS or the ooblet dev that used and doubled down on a 4chan slur against disabled people will call you a women hater.
Stop buying from Steam or Randy, the cocaine addict that is always lying and mistreating his employees will block you on twitter.
Tim will really dislike you and question your intelligence and adult hut. Also use whataboutism, the most clever discussion strategy.
I'm living in fear now, I can't live with those people disliking me. What will I ever do?
Obviously nothing, because not one intelligent, pro EGS argument was made in the last couple of days. Slurs, obvious money orientated propaganda, agendas have been voiced, and personal interests defended. No costumer that has trouble with third party exclusivity was convinced and turned sides because of this,
So why do you all worry? They are reaching incredible levels of stupidity. and look more desperat than ever before. This is a PR disaster and people are seeing it. Let The Schreiers and the GreySons write what they want, costumers aren't as stupid as they think.
The Ooblets Devs are a dead studio walking, once Tim stops paying them. No pity from me, enjoy your 7 minutes of fame.
Developers and journalists aren't interested in differentiating between normal people who protest and toxic people who spread hate because if you lump both of them together you can then dismiss every legitimate protest or customer movement as toxic.
WIth all the toxicity the devs are receiving they will truly believe what they say and that they are in the right. Stupid toxic gamers overshadowing the real concerns again. It almost pushes me to be side of the dev in that regard but only if they would acknoledge the real problems. But they wont.
Oh no, I can't agree with that at all.
I rather stay on my own side, because Randy, Ooblets and co. are as toxic as the people they try using as a shield. I just don't allow them to use the toxic argument against me, by not insulting them. Personally, I see no difference between a dev defending and using a toxic 4chan slur, a millionaire abusing his workforce and those other, loud toxic people. Bad is bad, no comparisons needed.
Btw, they can't acknowledge a problem they help feeding in the first place, this would mean admitting that they are doing something bad in the first place and them being the baddies is impossible.
I'm boycotting the EGS, because it's in my personal, best interest to not have third party exclusivity. Everything else, or how game journalists think about me is irrelevant. What other EGS boy-cotters say or do is irrelevant, I have my own reasons and this isn't Highschool where being part of a group is important. I don't care how J.Schreier or Greyson label me, I'm an adult, know my place, worth and standing in life. They are as unimportant to me, as I am to them.
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Matt Lees continues to be an absolute gem, thank you sir
Hm?
All I am saying is that the toxicity towards the dev is too much. I am speaking of the nasty things like getting spammed with images in the Discord and stuff like that. That helps nobody and just makes the devs believe what they spout. If you want to be toxic against them go ahead, but that won't change their mind.
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But the devs themselves are toxic in this case.
Nobody is saying anything different here.
We are talking about individual people, that can not be controlled. Not by me, not by you, not by anybody. Being an "ass" isn't helpful in defusing any kind of situation. But I'm not taking or accepting blame, I'm not insulting or posting nasty pictures on discord and so I don't feel like I'm part of the problem.
The devs preach what they preach because they have to deflect and shift blame. No matter how well behaved most of the people are, they'll point at the misguided ones and scream fire. They aren't pro EGS because a minority isn't nice to them, they are pro EGS because they took money and now they have to be. No matter how much sugar you'd blow towards them, this is a "you're with us or you're against us situation" by design. They won't change their stance.
You also have to look at the toxicity from both sides. The Devs (especially ooblet) tried to condescend, insult and humiliate EGS boy-cotters. It's not surprising they are getting the reactions they are. What goes around, comes around. Attacking somebody and than crying fire because you got some heat back is questionable. The guy speaking for Ooblet is a terrible person, on the same level as the people insulting him.
I'm having a hard time feeling sorry for both groups here.
Him using and defending the "errrrr" 4chan meme broke all sympathy. He is bad. Ooblet does not deserved to be supported imo, no matter the store.
Then the best we can do is being toxic ourselves? I am highly against such thinking.
He didn't say that, please do not put words and spin things.
All he is saying: Look at the total picture. You're just concentrating on the reactions, while ignoring the previous action. You can't do that.
Well, no, but I can't say that I feel particularly bad about two groups of internet assholes throwing shit at each other.
I am not ignoring the previous actions. I believe the toxicity from both sides is very bad and childish.
But what it does in this case is that it works against us, the consumers. The devs won't change their mind here, in fact they will feel confirmed by their actions and what they signed.
That's silly, they weren't gonna change their mind anyway and they don't need to feel confirmed, they can just pretend/act as if they are, they got money and can somehow be jerks about it all they want. I have no way to measure if the trolling is more than the legit posts (do you?) but this is the internet, shit posting is a given, that they want to only focus on that to pretend it confirms their position is how they'd have acted anyway.
Of course when they didn't have Epic money the story was very different and they just focused on the positive support they got even though you still had the odd troll poster talking about how the game looks shit or whatever (which hey, it's an opinion) whenever media was posted as news.
What makes you think there's any scenario where they'd rationally debate criticism rather than ignore it and handwave it all as gger drivel? Did you somehow miss their initial announcement that read like a Tim Sweeney press release trying to preemptively shut down any criticism about it whatsoever, which they then doubled down on further with every new sentence out of their mouths?
It's how Epic's handled it since day 1 and every single dev and media mouthpiece has followed suit simply because they can't counter the legit criticism so they pretend it's not there as they recycle their talking non-points like it's just a launcher, just an icon on the desktop, the low fee, the poor indies it helps (on a closed platform that doesn't let them in unless Sweeney approves and they submit to the exclusivity deal, lol?) whatever (even though it also works against their own arguments, in which case Steam is also just another icon rather than the devil incarnate we need Epic to save us from).
I mean, you had a guy talking about how he's a single parent in a near 3rd world country yet has been a patreon subscriber to the extent he was able to and how he probably won't be able to buy the game when it launches on EGS due to the lack of regional pricing/currencies which Steam would have supported and the very devs, posters on gaf and elsewhere just talked about how it's his fault for being in a shit country/situation (never mind the increasing importance of emerging markets for the industry which Steam actively nurtures and Epic ignores until the legwork is done for them, just like with PC digital distribution) or as if he was asking for a freebie. Plus the REEEEE thing (as if they'd give someone criticizing them the benefit of the doubt). Yet the ggers are those against EGS, lol?
I mean, how hard is it to at least acknowledge even a single valid point like that and then pr speak how unfortunately they can't accommodate him and others due to the EGS deal which was the best for their own situation at this time but they hope he will still be interested in the game when they launch on other platforms/territories/reduce the price/become an EGS freebie or whatever without being jerks? It's not like his post got lost, they actually responded in that inappropriate, insensitive manner that would make anyone feel like shit if they cared about internet talk (as they pretend it matters when it's against them).
You're naive if you think they got defensive over shit posting, they instigated it themselves by their attitude. When all your arguments have been handwaved as irrelevant shit from the first moment with the same tired non-arguments, how do you even begin to rationally discuss anyway? They instigated the shit posting by starting it but it's never a legit excuse to ignore the valid points made by tons of people over this or other games or just EGS in general anyway.
Personally I used to easily scroll by shit posting on forums and site comments and just discuss with people who can do that as on here, but when the shit posting is the main topic coming out of the developer, the company, the media reporting it and all their fanboy posse on top, preemptively lumping everyone else as a heathen to force their own view as the one truth, it's hard to not get annoyed by the situation. I dunno how your first instinct is to be against the toxic gamers when the other side is far more prevalent as far as I can see. Which isn't an excuse to approve of gamer shit posting but it's even hard to know how much of that is legit and how much just there to provide a scapegoat, as insufficient as it is (or should be) to act as one anyway.
Of course when they didn't have Epic money the story was very different and they just focused on the positive support they got even though you still had the odd troll poster talking about how the game looks shit or whatever (which hey, it's an opinion) whenever media was posted as news.
What makes you think there's any scenario where they'd rationally debate criticism rather than ignore it and handwave it all as gger drivel? Did you somehow miss their initial announcement that read like a Tim Sweeney press release trying to preemptively shut down any criticism about it whatsoever, which they then doubled down on further with every new sentence out of their mouths?
It's how Epic's handled it since day 1 and every single dev and media mouthpiece has followed suit simply because they can't counter the legit criticism so they pretend it's not there as they recycle their talking non-points like it's just a launcher, just an icon on the desktop, the low fee, the poor indies it helps (on a closed platform that doesn't let them in unless Sweeney approves and they submit to the exclusivity deal, lol?) whatever (even though it also works against their own arguments, in which case Steam is also just another icon rather than the devil incarnate we need Epic to save us from).
I mean, you had a guy talking about how he's a single parent in a near 3rd world country yet has been a patreon subscriber to the extent he was able to and how he probably won't be able to buy the game when it launches on EGS due to the lack of regional pricing/currencies which Steam would have supported and the very devs, posters on gaf and elsewhere just talked about how it's his fault for being in a shit country/situation (never mind the increasing importance of emerging markets for the industry which Steam actively nurtures and Epic ignores until the legwork is done for them, just like with PC digital distribution) or as if he was asking for a freebie. Plus the REEEEE thing (as if they'd give someone criticizing them the benefit of the doubt). Yet the ggers are those against EGS, lol?
I mean, how hard is it to at least acknowledge even a single valid point like that and then pr speak how unfortunately they can't accommodate him and others due to the EGS deal which was the best for their own situation at this time but they hope he will still be interested in the game when they launch on other platforms/territories/reduce the price/become an EGS freebie or whatever without being jerks? It's not like his post got lost, they actually responded in that inappropriate, insensitive manner that would make anyone feel like shit if they cared about internet talk (as they pretend it matters when it's against them).
You're naive if you think they got defensive over shit posting, they instigated it themselves by their attitude. When all your arguments have been handwaved as irrelevant shit from the first moment with the same tired non-arguments, how do you even begin to rationally discuss anyway? They instigated the shit posting by starting it but it's never a legit excuse to ignore the valid points made by tons of people over this or other games or just EGS in general anyway.
Personally I used to easily scroll by shit posting on forums and site comments and just discuss with people who can do that as on here, but when the shit posting is the main topic coming out of the developer, the company, the media reporting it and all their fanboy posse on top, preemptively lumping everyone else as a heathen to force their own view as the one truth, it's hard to not get annoyed by the situation. I dunno how your first instinct is to be against the toxic gamers when the other side is far more prevalent as far as I can see. Which isn't an excuse to approve of gamer shit posting but it's even hard to know how much of that is legit and how much just there to provide a scapegoat, as insufficient as it is (or should be) to act as one anyway.
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I guess I am naive enough to believe that people think a bit further, but I guess a big sack of money makes everyone immune to rational thinking. Sad.
Also I am very tired of the angry and entitled gamer type.
Toxicity from both sides is indeed very bad. I have zero expectations that developers will change their mind on moneyhats. You can be as kind and non-toxic as you want, money is money and they will always take it.
What everyone should realize is that no reaction from customers will ever be considered prim and proper. We as customers will always be 'entitled', 'manbabies', 'children', 'toxic'. If anyone disagrees, I'd like to hear a case of customer protest in the last twenty years that wasn't labelled as one of the above.
Yeah, I remember the PS4 No DRM campaign was initially painted as a bunch of entitled babies and “online DRM isn’t so bad”.
They changed their tune when Sony addressed the issue and Microsoft rowed back from it. Eventually the pundits stopped talking about the single biggest event that determined the trajectory of the current console cycle because they’d read the room wrong.
Goes perfectly with the devs exploiting tragedies to win internet fights they are starting themselves. At this point it's just background noise to me.
I just put one publisher's games and page on ignore because he did this exact same thing. The only thing these disgusting comparisons will achieve is losing my patronage forever.
I also disagree here. People insulting Ooblet doesn't effect us consumers, at all. Devs are going EGS exclusive because of money and not because Ooblet is being insulted. I do not see any kind of correlation here. It's actually quiet the opposite, there is a pretty clear timeline here:
1.) Dev announces games and captures the interest of consumers
2.) Dev gets money from Epic
3.) Exclusivity gets announced
4.) Dev preemptively insults critiques
5.) Dev gets insulted
Eliminating point 5 would do nothing, because it's at the end of a chain. It's not nice and nothing to be proud of, it doesn't help but it also doesn't change anything.
Piranha had a good and supporting mechwarrior community. Shenmu 3 had a loving community. People were celebrating Snapshot Games and Phoenix Point.
Those three games have two things in common:
1.) Loving Fans that went out of their way to help finance the products with their own money.
2.) Went EGS exclusive, after years of fan support. Just a couple of months before release.
You see, the amount of "love" and support you throw at them is irrelevant. They'll throw you under the buss and take whatever bag of money they can find.
So please spare me this "pour devs need more love or they'll go EGS exclusive" thing: Most of us have supported games beyond what's reasonable. We helped bringing them to live, in a world where even pre-orders for AAA can result in disasters (FO76 and Anthem anybody?).
We supported them because we liked and believed in certain dev studios. We all have been thanked with a middle finger, a kick in the nuts and an insult here and there. No amount of blowing sugar into their asses helped. A couple twitter insults have zero impact on their future decision and yes, you are very naive to think otherwise.
I agree with your last paragraph, it really is a sad state of the industry.
That won't change my stance of being honest and non-aggressive tho.
What I find to be the worst aspect of this whole "the customer is toxic" movement is that if I decide to use the only real power I have as a consumer, my wallet, I'm called toxic and entitled for that too. I'm tired of these publishers and developers believing that they have a right to my money. Calling me a manbaby because I don't want to give you MY money is the worst form of corporate bullying I've ever seen, and I'm done with it. Honestly, this is why I've been gravitating to more Japanese games these days. At least the developers over there still have some humility.
Never said you should be aggressive or toxic.
Just don't treat those devs as victims that need protection and have no choice but to go EGS exclusive.
You are just legitimizing them retroactively and doing nobody a favor.
I never did and never will. I only want everyone in this situations to do better.
What do you define as non-aggressive?
edit: I ask because we on the gamer/consumer side have a completely different definition and it's not like we have one singular definition than the devs and epic do. And they're willing to move the goal posts as necessary.
I would consider spamming the devs Discord with porn images as being aggressive.
I think if anything good comes from EGS, it’s that hopefully players who have felt burned by these indies being arseholes are reminded that the relationship between developer and customer should be transactional.
They are making a thing and trying to sell it to us. I don’t think we should buy into this “we are friends” or faux progressive spiel that the indies have fostered because it is unhealthy and just leads to people being manipulated or hurt. I think of the number of times I’ve talked myself into buying a game because I want to support the developer because they come across as a nice person on Twitter or whatever and, well, fuck that.
Because in the end, these guys are hijacking positive and progressive narratives and inserting their products there, then playing the victim when things don’t go their way. And in the end, they will sell out at the drop of a hat. And it isn’t just games, but other products too ranging from music, films, food and crafts. And I don’t blame them because in this capitalist system everything’s a hustle, and you need to do whatever you can to get some dollar. Just, as consumers, we should be aware that it’s all an act in the end.
I think going forward, every time I have the impulse to “help a developer” by buying their game on sale or whatever, I will remember to take another look at the game. Watch some videos, read some reviews, and weigh up whether I really have the time or inclination to play it. And if the game doesn’t hit my standards then I won’t buy it - instead I’ll take the cash I was gonna pay for their game and donate it to a good cause.
They are making a thing and trying to sell it to us. I don’t think we should buy into this “we are friends” or faux progressive spiel that the indies have fostered because it is unhealthy and just leads to people being manipulated or hurt. I think of the number of times I’ve talked myself into buying a game because I want to support the developer because they come across as a nice person on Twitter or whatever and, well, fuck that.
Because in the end, these guys are hijacking positive and progressive narratives and inserting their products there, then playing the victim when things don’t go their way. And in the end, they will sell out at the drop of a hat. And it isn’t just games, but other products too ranging from music, films, food and crafts. And I don’t blame them because in this capitalist system everything’s a hustle, and you need to do whatever you can to get some dollar. Just, as consumers, we should be aware that it’s all an act in the end.
I think going forward, every time I have the impulse to “help a developer” by buying their game on sale or whatever, I will remember to take another look at the game. Watch some videos, read some reviews, and weigh up whether I really have the time or inclination to play it. And if the game doesn’t hit my standards then I won’t buy it - instead I’ll take the cash I was gonna pay for their game and donate it to a good cause.
If I love something, I will share it and promote it in the few ways I can because I want others to experience the things I did when playing it. I'm not doing it to help the developer specifically (even though promoting someone else's work does help them), but I'm doing it to spread joy to others. We need to move away from this idea that we need to be helping these developers whether their games are good or not. No, if you create a mediocre game, it's a mediocre game, no matter how much love and effort you put into it. If you make a trash game, it's still a trash game, no matter if it took 2 people or 200 to make. A product needs to speak for itself, and nothing more.
I think it's important to keep in mind that this situation is similar to calling out racists and such in public. You don't do it because you're going to change their mind. You won't. And the person in the wrong is highly motivated to save face and be defensive. But you put up a good rational public argument for the benefit of everyone else observing -- there are people on the fence, there are people who aren't familiar with the issue at all, and there are people who are on your side but unwilling to speak out yet. I wish this thread could be as read as widely as possible -- the level of argument and language here is so far above anywhere else I've seen. You can be impassioned about an issue without aggressive namecalling, ranting, or whatever else, which is just giving the other side ammunition. If people really are doing things like spamming porn in the discord, that is not a good look.
Haha I honestly thought it would be a pic of a pornstar in that spoiler.Depends on the porn star
I kid, I kid!
I would not be surprised if some of that porn spamming is pro-EGS people trying to make the opposition look worse than it is. We saw some of that with GamerGate (not that GGers didn't do some abhorrent shit, but there's proof out there that it happened). I really haven't even heard of the anti-EGS folk being that bad up to this point, not even from those vowing to pirate.
And that is intended. The whole Gamer™ baby-Gamer, manbabies, toxic gamer, etc. is a tool to discredit criticism. You can criticize person X, company Y, etc. sometimes it is enough to label the crowd tocix or whatever, sometimes you just need to point to some fuckwit on Reddit or Twitter and suddenly the support crumbles. "NO! I am NOT the same as the toxic Gamers™! My criticism was hasty, I am sorry."
it is like clockwork. Just point to someone with 5 followers and 3 tweets and claim every support of the criticism is on the same page as that fuckwit. (he/she doesn't even need to be real, just make an account and discredit your criticizers).
It always works against us, because the devs and industry will always try to label every criticism as toxic. If you want to give up... shrug I know where I stand, I know I am not toxic or do things that are toxic.
The devs don't see what they are doing is wrong, they don't apologize. So even if they have to close down, it is nothing to me. They are a dime a dozen in an ocean full of fish, Other devs who are not assholes need our sympathy and support.
I need to stop the twitter I think, cos now I'm getting blocked by devs and journos for disagreeing with them >_>
Gamers aren't their audience anyhow.
So how are you addressing the ooblong situation now? what stance do you have to the dev? What do you expect from them?
I am going to ignore everything they put out, be it as amazing or whatever and also when it eventually launches elsewhere. The stance I have to them is pretty clear, I don't have to spam them with horrible things.
I am already doing this with a lot of upcoming games. The Out Worlds, Rebel Galaxy Outlaw, Zombie Army 2 - those hurt a lot, but no thanks.
Then you are reading/interpreting my posts wrong?
But I like calling Timmy a fuckwit. For the latter I want to see proof that it happened. Not saying it couldn't have but I want to see it, someone has screenshots?
Not really, no. If you just ignore them you are not really helping either, you are just neutral. If you don't like something you have to say something. To make it a full circle now, you are not saying something about the political right, you are just ignoring them?
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It's honestly not healthy to bother with devs and journalists on this issue. If you've noticed, there hasn't been a single person who has taken a step back and reassessed their opinion after a twitter back and forth. Some devs are holding strong because they feel that if Epic attempts to recreate 2011 Steam, it could help a number of devs (mainly them). They don't see the long term repercussions of relying on Tim's pockets, and ignoring their fans and potential customers. Keep in mind, I would take the deal if I didn't think I was going to be a smash success on Steam, so I'm not judging them on that. I just need them to stop trying to make us feel guilty for not instantly falling for Epic's sales pitch.
Plus, don't you benefit from taking the deal, and not selling anything until a Steam/GOG release anyway? Get paid twice. The longer Tim fights for a piece of the pie, the more exclusivity deals, and the more devs get to eat. Stop with the "it's just a launcher" talk.
Oh and you know some of these devs are just throwing up flares in hopes that Tim notices them. I've even see it on Era. Get paid, I guess. I don't blame Mode7 for hopping in. I loved Frozen Synapse, but they just didn't follow up properly. I know it's been tough for them, so hopefully they do get a bit of that Epic cash.
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Personally I don’t write Epic Exclusives off completely, I can understand game development is a hard business but devs being jerks is where I draw the line.
So, stuff like the Dontnod game, Outer Worlds, Industries of Titan, Hades and cases like that are still on my radar when they release on a platform I like.
Stuff like Ooblets, Borderlands, Metro and Shenmue are a big no no no, no matter where they go after Epic.
So, stuff like the Dontnod game, Outer Worlds, Industries of Titan, Hades and cases like that are still on my radar when they release on a platform I like.
Stuff like Ooblets, Borderlands, Metro and Shenmue are a big no no no, no matter where they go after Epic.
I am not giving them money, which in the end is visible to them, even if they received a care package already. I hope many others do the same.
An angry tweet is like a fart in the wind. Interesting I recieve flak for not being angry on the internet.
Yeah not sure the "get paid twice, or trice..." is something devs consider to be a good argument. I guess Epic is silencing them there.
Fuck me, apparently I'm the troll. I'm the bad guy.
Fuck this, I'm getting off twitter. I don't think I've held as much contempt for the games industry at large as I do right now.
Fuck this, I'm getting off twitter. I don't think I've held as much contempt for the games industry at large as I do right now.