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[Derrick01]

I laughed when the devolver person said this

"The rise about developers and publishers going to Epic and exclusivity, it doesn't really hold up," he said. "I play games on PlayStation, Xbox, and Switch, and Devolver--we've done console exclusives with Sony, with Microsoft--

It reminds me of console gamers saying "what's the big deal we have exclusives?". Meanwhile I just read a 20 something page thread where fanboys were fighting over a fucking enhancement patch being exclusive. Not an actual game. A patch. FOH with that fake what's the big deal concern.

 

[Alexandros]

I laughed when the devolver person said this



It reminds me of console gamers saying "what's the big deal we have exclusives?". Meanwhile I just read a 20 something page thread where fanboys were fighting over a fucking enhancement patch being exclusive. Not an actual game. A patch. FOH with that fake what's the big deal concern.

Hypocrites. It's as simple as that. They way they celebrate when their own "team" buys exclusive content is truly pathetic. "Yay, my favorite company paid money not to make extra content for me but to take away content from others!".

 

[Chudah]

They still get a continued revenue stream from consoles though, not sure how many Pc only egsclusives they have.

True, but with the way Sony barely promotes anything but their biggest AAA exclusives anymore, how many people are actually buying Observation on the PS4?

 

[Alexandros]

They still get a continued revenue stream from consoles though, not sure how many Pc only egsclusives they have.

Indie games don't sell that well on PS4 and XB1. Switch is still a good market until it reaches its saturation point but PC (well, Steam) is still the #1 platform for most indies.

 

[Stone Ocean]

(they'd have to be completely INSANE to sign a contract that says "you won't get any money until the moneyhat is paid back ... regardless of how long it takes")

You're assuming every dev taking these deals can think beyond short term gains.

 

[lashman]

You're assuming every dev taking these deals can think beyond short term gains.

yeah ... but still, i refuse to believe there is no time limit for that ...

 

[Alexandros]

yeah ... but still, i refuse to believe there is no time limit for that ...

I don't know, some devs were in quite a hurry to list their games on Steam as the exclusivity period draws to a close. It's possible that these developers drank Epic's Kool Aid and thought that customers would follow them blindly. That would be truly hilarious.

 

[Wok]

they'd have to be completely INSANE to sign a contract that says "you won't get any money until the moneyhat is paid back ... regardless of how long it takes"

Why? That would only be insane if the moneyhat had not already been paid. They got the money from these virtual sales, so it is all good for them.

Imagine someone lends you one million USD upfront, with no interest rate. If you earn some money, you have to give it to the lender, until you have given one million USD back and you are debt-free. If you never manage to repay the lender, then nothing happens. Meanwhile, you can do many things with the money: invest it in another project, repay your other debts (for which there are interest rates), etc.

It is even better, because the devs can earn money on other stores. It is only the money earnt on Epic store which is used to repay Tim.

The only way this can go bad is if you gamble the money, or use it for alcohol, drugs, hookers, or micro-transactions. Or if you trust a crook who takes advantage of you. It is not fee money as in winning the lottery, but it is amazing because it is paid upfront, with zero interest rate, and no consequence if you cannot repay the lender. With proper budget management, it can be an incredible deal.

 

[lashman]

I don't know, some devs were in quite a hurry to list their games on Steam as the exclusivity period draws to a close.

well, i mean, yeah ... obviously ... why would they think those games would magically start selling like crazy the moment the moneyhat contract is up? they might start getting any money then ... but that doesn't mean the sales numbers are crazy good or anything

so those two things aren't mutually exclusive or anything

Why? That would only be insane if the moneyhat had not already been paid. They got the money from these virtual sales, so it is all good for them.

Imagine someone lends you one million USD upfront, with no interest rate. If you earn some money, you have to give it to the lender, until you have given one million USD back and you are debt-free. If you never manage to repay the lender, then nothing happens. Meanwhile, you can do many things with the money: invest it in another project, repay your other debts (for which there are interest rates), etc.

It is even better, because the devs can earn money on other stores. It is only the money earnt on Epic store which is used to repay Tim.

The only way this can go bad is if you gamble the money, or use it for alcohol, drugs, hookers, or micro-transactions. Or if you trust a crook who takes advantage of you. It is not fee money as in winning the lottery, but it is amazing because it is paid upfront with zero interest rate.

yes, but there's also the case of that 88/12 split .... like, why would you sign a contract like that (no time limit) when there's a VERY real chance you might NEVER see a single cent (beyond the moneyhat) out of the sales on that particular store? seems crazy to me ...

 

[Wok]

yes, but there's also the case of that 88/12 split .... like, why would you sign a contract like that (no time limit) when there's a VERY real chance you might NEVER see a single cent (beyond the moneyhat) out of the sales on that particular store? seems crazy to me ...

In this scenario, the moneyhat consists of 88% of the guaranteed sales, so the 12% cut remains an interesting offer. If Valve offered the same guaranteed sales, then the dev would have less money from the moneyhat.

Moreover, as far as I know, all the exclusivity contracts have a time limit: it would be pretty sad if a game flopped because people boycott Epic. It is important to have the possibility to sell on other stores after some time. I agree that contracts with permanent exclusivity could be a bad deal for the devs.

 

[lashman]

In this scenario, the moneyhat consists of 88% of the guaranteed sales, so the 12% cut remains an interesting offer. If Valve offered the same guaranteed sales, then the dev would have less money from the moneyhat.

yes, that's great and all ... but still - there's a very real chance you might NEVER see a single cent of the sales of your game from that particular store

 

[dfghstrbght]

yes, but there's also the case of that 88/12 split .... like, why would you sign a contract like that (no time limit) when there's a VERY real chance you might NEVER see a single cent (beyond the moneyhat) out of the sales on that particular store? seems crazy to me ...

it isn't crazy it's a good deal, if you never see a cent it means that said game has earned less than the upfront payment, which also means the upfront payment received was bigger than the actual revenue the game would have generated.
That means the pub/dev had a bigger sum of money the game would have generated, they need no other revenue stream, they already got paid for much more the game was worth why would it be bad for them? The only one losing money is Epic and they don't care,

 

[Digoman]

I always assumed at least for the little guys there would be no timelimit for those advanced sales deals, but who knows....

yes, but there's also the case of that 88/12 split .... like, why would you sign a contract like that (no time limit) when there's a VERY real chance you might NEVER see a single cent (beyond the moneyhat) out of the sales on that particular store? seems crazy to me ...

Given how last minute and fast the EGS exclusives were negotiated I think you are giving most indie developers way too much credit. We more or less know that Epic is "generous" with the numbers of copies, so I think they just showed up saying "Hey, look at this much money!" and there wasn't a lot of thinking after that. At best they thought that after the 1-year deal they would go to sell on Steam as if nothing had happened (which we don't know yet if it will be the case).

Of course a few developers were smarter, but given the typical "strategy" of blaming their customers, I don't think there was a lot planing. I'm actually surprised the typical deal was for 1 year and not "forever".

 

[lashman]

it isn't crazy it's a good deal, if you never see a cent it means that said game has earned less than the upfront payment, which also means the upfront payment received was bigger than the actual revenue the game would have generated.
That means the pub/dev had a bigger sum of money the game would have generated, they need no other revenue stream, they already got paid for much more the game was worth why would it be bad for them? The only one losing money is Epic and they don't care,

I always assumed at least for the little guys there would be no timelimit for those advanced sales deals, but who knows....


Given how last minute and fast the EGS exclusives were negotiated I think you are giving most indie developers way too much credit. We more or less know that Epic is "generous" with the numbers of copies, so I think they just showed up saying "Hey, look at this much money!" and there wasn't a lot of thinking after that. At best they thought that after the 1-year deal they would go to sell on Steam as if nothing had happened (which we don't know yet if it will be the case).

Of course a few developers were smarter, but given the typical "strategy" of blaming their customers, I don't think there was a lot planing. I'm actually surprised the typical deal was for 1 year and not "forever".

fair enough

 

[gabbo]

yeah ... but still, i refuse to believe there is no time limit for that ...

I find it hard to believe Epic wouldnt word it that way. If they don't word it like that/ make it indefinite, then their 88/12 cut would almost never recoup the initial moneyhat on any game that isnt a borderlands 3 sized series.

My thought is devs are either mismanaging the moneyhat or like every other aspect of EGS, the payments arent regular on top of low sales.
Even if they beat the moneyhat target, inconsistent payments or sales could throw even the best mamagement for a loop

 

[lashman]

My thought is devs are either mismanaging the moneyhat or like every other aspect of EGS, the payments arent regular on top of low sales.
Even if they beat the moneyhat target, inconsistent payments or sales could throw even the best mamagement for a loop

yeah, that's actually a really good point ... you have to imagine that those payments (if anyone actually managed to go over the moneyhat limit) have to be done manually by someone .... so they're probably on a "whenever we feel like it" basis

 

[Kyougar]

Of course, but how many of these studios do you think have budgeted out that big paycheck to last them the next 12 months? They probably went into it thinking they'd clear the sales goal eventually and begin getting paid for additional units sold after so many months, and that may not be happening. Seems getting an Epic moneyhat really is like winning the lotto. And like many a lotto winner, the winnings don't last all that long if you spend it foolishly.

not many. if they had budgeting skills, they wouldn't need to be "saved" by Epic.

 

[sauce]

Off topic but for Black Future '88, were those PC Gamer beta keys going to turn into the full game as well?

 

[Arsene]

Exploration puzzle game Manifold Garden launches October 18 for PC and Apple Arcade, later for PS4

Exploration puzzle game Manifold Garden will launch for PC via the Epic Games Store for $19.99, and for Mac, iOS, and tvOS via Apple Arcade on October 18, developer William Chyr Studio announced. A…

gematsu.com

Announcing your release date 2 days prior to release doesn’t seem like a good idea when you’re EGS exclusive. Also Kine releasing the day before. Epic’s exclusives keep releasing right next to eachother or on the same day. You’d think they would want to space them out a bit

 

[lashman]

Announcing your release date 2 days prior to release doesn’t seem like a good idea when you’re EGS exclusive. Also Kine releasing the day before. Epic’s exclusives keep releasing right next to eachother or on the same day. You’d think they would want to space them out a bit

well, i mean ... it's not like they have to worry about people actually buying those games anymore, so ... i suppose it doesn't really matter all that much

at least not until they actually have to start selling them on PC (as in: 12 months from now)

 

[C-Dub]

well, i mean ... it's not like they have to worry about people actually buying those games anymore, so ... i suppose it doesn't really matter all that much

at least not until they actually have to start selling them on PC (as in: 12 months from now)

Basically this. They just need to release in a condition good enough to not look like hot garbage on Metacritic and they can then promote them a year down the line.

 

[Alexandros]

Basically this. They just need to release in a condition good enough to not look like hot garbage on Metacritic and they can then promote them a year down the line.

The first games that went EGS exclusive are coming to Steam in the next few months, right? Hades, Ashen and other early EGS titles? I'm very curious to see how they'll do on Steam.

 

[Rosenkrantz]

Hades, Ashen and other early EGS titles? I'm very curious to see how they'll do on Steam.

Hades might get decent sales considering it's an EA title. Ashen on the other hand, I don't expect it to crack TOP 10, nobody even remembers about its existence.

 

[fantomena]

Kine and Manifold releasing this soon? I don't have time for that. Im suppose to be finishing a ton of other games I have on Steam, Game Pass and GOG.

Which means, see you in 1 year. Or maybe more.

 

[Joe Spangle]

Do you think those games will launch on Steam at full price or get some sort of discount (the EPIC games i mean)?

Pretty packed window to release in, lots of COMPETITION. I will prioritise new non-eggs games over those ones. Actually ill prioritise my wishlist games over those ones as well.

 

[Eferis]

I get it, you need money and bills won't pay themselves, but working years on a creative project and then launch exclusively on two platform that paid you upfront because you don't believe enough in your project to think that the public will support it is fucking depressing.

 

[Dandy]

Hades might get decent sales considering it's an EA title. Ashen on the other hand, I don't expect it to crack TOP 10, nobody even remembers about its existence.

Yeah. I've at least heard people praise Hades. No one is talking about Ashen.

 

[Alexandros]

Hades might get decent sales considering it's an EA title. Ashen on the other hand, I don't expect it to crack TOP 10, nobody even remembers about its existence.

It will get at least some push by Steam's recommendation system so I wouldn't be surprised to see it charting. In any case it will be interesting to follow the sales and concurrent user numbers of these games.

Do you think those games will launch on Steam at full price or get some sort of discount (the EPIC games i mean)?

Pretty packed window to release in, lots of COMPETITION. I will prioritise new non-eggs games over those ones. Actually ill prioritise my wishlist games over those ones as well.

Probably full price with some sort of launch discount.

 

[C-Dub]

The first games that went EGS exclusive are coming to Steam in the next few months, right? Hades, Ashen and other early EGS titles? I'm very curious to see how they'll do on Steam.

The fact that they're advertising them on Steam now is a coded message not to buy them on EGS. Clearly they haven't hit the advance and buying them on EGS now is basically giving the developer no cash.

I reckon Hades, at least, will do well. Ashen is a lost cause because the experience relies on online, and the community for the game is dead on PC.

 

[Joe Spangle]

The fact that they're advertising them on Steam now is a coded message not to buy them on EGS. Clearly they haven't hit the advance and buying them on EGS now is basically giving the developer no cash.

So its become a weird situation where by the best thing for the dev is to buy from the store that takes the evil 30%.

 

[C-Dub]

So its become a weird situation where by the best thing for the dev is to buy from the store that takes the evil 30%.

The hope was obviously that EGS would be good for smaller games. On the most part it seems not to be.

I reckon we'll see more talk like Devolver, about "resetting" the discussion on Steam's cut, because Valve has clearly not given in to the pressure and some developers/publishers of smaller games clearly want to try and rebuild bridges.

Basically, from an indie perspective, the gambit to force Steam into a better revenue split has failed. At this point anyone going to EGS knows their game will sell like shit, but they're doing it for the guaranteed cash. The jury is still out on mid-tier and AAA games, however. I think if the poor sales tail impacts the bottom line then Epic will have to fork over more cash for AAA exclusives or make the exclusivity window shorter.

 

[Rosenkrantz]

I reckon we'll see more talk like Devolver, about "resetting" the discussion on Steam's cut, because Valve has clearly not given in to the pressure and some developers/publishers of smaller games clearly want to try and rebuild bridges.

GabeN played it right. They didn't start war over exclusivity and games that EGS promised to be the most beneficial to didn't actually benefit all that much. Now Valve looks like a bastion of stability, an entity that is ready to embrace you with open arms even after you tried to stab it in the back. Good PR all around.

I'm actually waiting for a moment when Ubisoft will crawl back (which I'm 85% sure is inevitability), would be interesting to see their PR machine trying to win back the audience.

 

[Joe Spangle]

GabeN played it right. They didn't start war over exclusivity and games that EGS promised to be the most beneficial to didn't actually benefit all that much. Now Valve looks like a bastion of stability, an entity that is ready to embrace you with open arms even after you tried to stab it in the back. Good PR all around.

It will be interesting to see how this first crop of Eggs games sell when back on Steam. If they sell well then the decision to go exclusive for a year was a good one (for those devs), Paid up front and then launch for real. If they sell badly then those devs might struggle to get another exclusivity deal and have lost any momentum their future games might have.

Either way i don't think its great for us the customer. Either exclusives become the norm and we get year delays on games we are interested in or those devs will go bust once the exclusivity is over and they then struggle back in the COMPETITION pit.

 

[Rosenkrantz]

Either way i don't think its great for us the customer. Either exclusives become the norm and we get year delays on games we are interested in or those devs will go bust once the exclusivity is over and they then struggle back in the COMPETITION pit.

I don't think the first one will be a particularly big problem, especially in the case of indie games there for every month you've missed on Steam users will get a dozen or more games of the same quality. Big hitters like Blands 3 will most likely sell a lot, but that's expected given the brand recognition. Division 2 and other Ubi games are in a tricky situation, if they ever release Division 2 on Steam they might as well go D2 route and make it an F2P title, the online will be half-dead by that time.

The second instance can definitely occur, but I think in the end it'll be on devs and pubs, nobody forced their hand, it was a gamble and you rarely win in those.

 

[Flips]

That the first wave of EGS-exclusives are now releasing on Steam just shows me one thing:

There are so many great games out there that it really doesn't matter if a game gets moneyhatted by Epic or not. You're not missing out, just play something else and forget about the game you were looking for because I'm sure you'll find an alternative in your backlog or on sale somewhere.

This one year flew by and I've probably forgotten about 90% of the Eggsclusives by now. Epic's help with marketing apart from the articles when a game goes exclusive and a Twitter post when a game releases is pretty much non-existent.

 

[C-Dub]

Many are reporting that a large wave of Shenmue III refunds are going out today.

 

[fantomena]

According to people on cs.rin.ru, r/crackwatch and r/controlthegame, Control from Remedy has been DRM-free, meaning you could play the game without using EGS, but after the newest update, you cannot and people are reporting you cannot use the Steam controller either.

CS.RIN.RU - Steam Underground Community • View topic - CONTROL

Cracking Steam and coding Steam related tools and emulators since 2003. Get all Steam games you want and play them the way you want to - for free!

cs.rin.ru

This DRM update makes you not able to add the game as a custom Steam game so you cannot use the Steam controller or Steam Big Picture or anything like that.

 

[Ruvon]

Many are reporting that a large wave of Shenmue III refunds are going out today.

Maybe we'll see FunktionJCB happy today !

 

[C-Dub]

I haven't read the details, but they may still be able to play by launching it through OSOL and adding the OSOL exe to Steam.

 

[Copons]

cannot use the Steam controller either

I don't care much about the DRM situation, as I've always assumed the lack of it was a bug, but this really rubs me the wrong way.

 

[C-Dub]

Who knows why this has happened. It could be the developer adding DRM, or it could be Epic wanting you to launch it through their launcher rather than just downloading the game and adding it to Steam.

Regardless, the haphazard and fragmented nature of this has broken previously working functionality for customers, and that's never a good thing.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Yeah. I've at least heard people praise Hades. No one is talking about Ashen.

I'm told Ashen is kinda poo

 

[Trisolarian]

According to people on cs.rin.ru, r/crackwatch and r/controlthegame, Control from Remedy has been DRM-free, meaning you could play the game without using EGS, but after the newest update, you cannot and people are reporting you cannot use the Steam controller either.

CS.RIN.RU - Steam Underground Community • View topic - CONTROL

Cracking Steam and coding Steam related tools and emulators since 2003. Get all Steam games you want and play them the way you want to - for free!

cs.rin.ru

This DRM update makes you not able to add the game as a custom Steam game so you cannot use the Steam controller or Steam Big Picture or anything like that.

Fucking bullshit. I've been live and let live with Epic for a while but this is height of bullshit. You don't fuck with the PC ecosystem this way and then claim your saving it.

 

[Nabs]

According to people on cs.rin.ru, r/crackwatch and r/controlthegame, Control from Remedy has been DRM-free, meaning you could play the game without using EGS, but after the newest update, you cannot and people are reporting you cannot use the Steam controller either.

CS.RIN.RU - Steam Underground Community • View topic - CONTROL

Cracking Steam and coding Steam related tools and emulators since 2003. Get all Steam games you want and play them the way you want to - for free!

cs.rin.ru

This DRM update makes you not able to add the game as a custom Steam game so you cannot use the Steam controller or Steam Big Picture or anything like that.

Thanks for the heads up. A friend picked up a cheap nvidia code, and we family shared the game among friends.

 

[gabbo]

I'm actually waiting for a moment when Ubisoft will crawl back (which I'm 85% sure is inevitability), would be interesting to see their PR machine trying to win back the audience.

This id be less sure of, theyve launched how many titles on EGS so far? Also if i recall uplay saw a big uptick in Division2 sales when it launched did it not? Ubi might go back to steam day-and-date, but it would make sense to do so quietly

 

[Rosenkrantz]

This id be less sure of, theyve launched how many titles on EGS so far? Also if i recall uplay saw a big uptick in Division2 sales when it launched did it not? Ubi might go back to steam day-and-date, but it would make sense to do so quietly

Isn't overall sales were down for Division 2 compared to the 1st game? I remember them giving some numbers but they were looking like a usual EGS spin.

 

[gabbo]

Isn't overall sales were down for Division 2 compared to the 1st game? I remember them giving some numbers but they were looking like a usual EGS spin.

Overall sales, sure; but Uplay way up. Depending on how long a game Ubi is looking to play here, that might be a calculated risk. Really try to offset lost sales with 100% uplay profit

 

[Alexandros]

That the first wave of EGS-exclusives are now releasing on Steam just shows me one thing:

There are so many great games out there that it really doesn't matter if a game gets moneyhatted by Epic or not. You're not missing out, just play something else and forget about the game you were looking for because I'm sure you'll find an alternative in your backlog or on sale somewhere.

This one year flew by and I've probably forgotten about 90% of the Eggsclusives by now. Epic's help with marketing apart from the articles when a game goes exclusive and a Twitter post when a game releases is pretty much non-existent.

This has been Epic's Achilles Heel right from the start. They are trying to force people to buy from the store largely with indie exclusives and without any sort of way to achieve vendor lock-in. EA tried and failed to develop Origin as a competitor to Steam even though they had real AAA exclusives every year. Microsoft failed to do the same with the Windows Store and they had AAA exclusives every year. Epic's library pales in comparison.

I don't care much about the DRM situation, as I've always assumed the lack of it was a bug, but this really rubs me the wrong way.

This is why I never buy games on other clients. I use the Steam Controller for all of my gaming and I don't want to deal with shoddy support on other clients. Games on Origin, uPlay etc are only for rent for me.

 

[Deleted member 113]

Maybe we'll see FunktionJCB happy today !

Sadly, no.

I did get a rare reply from Ys Net, and is yet another utterly generic reply asking me to be patient about the refund.

They announced the EGS exclusivity in early June. We are in the second half of October, and I still don't have my money pack.
These guys are taking the piss. If Epic is covering refunds, like they announced, there's no reason for all these delays.
Almost 4 weeks later, they still haven't refunded all the people who asked for a refund on the very first day! What a joke.

 

[Rosenkrantz]

Overall sales, sure; but Uplay way up. Depending on how long a game Ubi is looking to play here, that might be a calculated risk. Really try to offset lost sales with 100% uplay profit

It would be interesting to know if they counted Steam sales of the first game as Uplay sales? Without knowing that their point is kinda moot.