News Epic Games Store

Ryna

Overwatch husbando juggler
Apr 17, 2019
540
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Canada
What exactly is GCJ? Google says it's "Google Code Jam", but I doubt that's what you meant :p
/r/GamingCirclejerk.

Since Epic is widely hated they feel obligated to downplay issues and defend them at every turn. To them every body mad at epic is a Steam fanboy or a Gamer™️ and if you disagree you get downvoted to hell and back.

Its a fine subreddit for the most part but they don’t understand the issues people have with EGS at all.



This was in reply to the Terraria dev saying they wouldn't "sell their souls" for an exclusivity deal. They literally think all the Epic outrage is fanboyism and GAMERS™️
 
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MJunioR

Tim Sweeney 🤤
Mar 13, 2019
362
670
93
What exactly is GCJ? Google says it's "Google Code Jam", but I doubt that's what you meant :p
/r/GamingCirclejerk.

Since Epic is widely hated they feel obligated to downplay issues and defend them at every turn. To them every body mad at epic is a Steam fanboy or a Gamer™️ and if you disagree you get downvoted to hell and back.

Its a fine subreddit for the most part but they don’t understand the issues people have with EGS at all.
This. /r/GamingCirclejerk had some pretty on point posts in the past, especially about /r/gaming, Todd and some other things but since the whole EGS situation blew up, all they do is spam any criticism post of it with 'EPIC BAD STEAM GOOD HAHA, LOL PC GAMERS ARE SO ENTITLED ITS JUST ANOTHER LAUNCHER' ignoring every post that says otherwise and pinpoint EGS problems. Honestly, I'm won't be surprised at all if they start harassing specific users that have been constantly pointing issues with Epic publicly. They have done in the past with /r/gaming users.
 

Ryna

Overwatch husbando juggler
Apr 17, 2019
540
1,143
93
Canada
This. /r/GamingCirclejerk had some pretty on point posts in the past, especially about /r/gaming, Todd and some other things but since the whole EGS situation blew up, all they do is spam any criticism post of it with 'EPIC BAD STEAM GOOD HAHA, LOL PC GAMERS ARE SO ENTITLED ITS JUST ANOTHER LAUNCHER' ignoring every post that says otherwise and pinpoint EGS problems. Honestly, I'm won't be surprised at all if they start harassing specific users that have been constantly pointing issues with Epic publicly. They have done in the past with /r/gaming users.
They completely lack any self awareness. They use /uj and proceed to continue circlejerking without realizing it.
 
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Casper

Junior Member
Jan 20, 2019
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Yeah I kept getting email even after I asked to be removed, but they stopped after awhile, so it's probably the two week thing.
To be clear, you are saying you asked to have your account removed right? You are not saying this is after you unsubscribed from their emails? I assume they are different and not combined in the account deletion process. I assume that because it is non-compliant with several regulations to email an address if they've requested to receive no further contact...
 

Monooboe

Vagabond Perv Photographer
Oct 10, 2018
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www.fancierlust.com
To be clear, you are saying you asked to have your account removed right? You are not saying this is after you unsubscribed from their emails? I assume they are different and not combined in the account deletion process. I assume that because it is non-compliant with several regulations to email an address if they've requested to receive no further contact...
Yeah account delation, I think I also said them to remove all info they have on me.
 

Flips

Onion Knight
May 12, 2019
44
193
33
They completely lack any self awareness. They use /uj and proceed to continue circlejerking without realizing it.
I'm still waiting for /r/GamingCirclejerkCirclejerk

I used to visit GCJ quite frequently but at some point, it just became too stupid. Like constantly posting pictures with swastikas and shit like that. I know the mods have banned that stuff by now but the whole thing has sure left a sour taste in my mouth.
 
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Ryna

Overwatch husbando juggler
Apr 17, 2019
540
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Canada
I'm still waiting for /r/GamingCirclejerkCirclejerk

I used to visit GCJ quite frequently but at some point, it just became too stupid. Like constantly posting pictures with swastikas and shit like that. I know the mods have banned that stuff by now but the whole thing has sure left a sour taste in my mouth.
Yeah. GCJ was pretty hilarious when the whole Battlefield V and Assassin's Creed Odyssey thing was going on. But the popularity it got from this really caused the subreddit to nosedive hard.

Even with the nazi ban, 90% of GCJ content boils down to X GOOD, Y BAD, replacing text on a image with "women and minorities", or X-posting low quality /r/gaming posts with absolutely no changes to the post or title, I miss when it had actual jokes and high quality OC.
 
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Ge0force

Collector of hidden agendas
Jan 12, 2019
653
1,604
93
Belgium
/r/GamingCirclejerk.

Since Epic is widely hated they feel obligated to downplay issues and defend them at every turn. To them every body mad at epic is a Steam fanboy or a Gamer™️ and if you disagree you get downvoted to hell and back.

Its a fine subreddit for the most part but they don’t understand the issues people have with EGS at all.



This was in reply to the Terraria dev saying they wouldn't "sell their souls" for an exclusivity deal. They literally think all the Epic outrage is fanboyism and GAMERS™️
I wonder if these people are pc gamers at all. This remembers me from the time I was criticizing Microsoft for pushing encrypted UWP apps with a €70 price tag as the new standard for pc gaming. Dozens of Xbox gamers were calling me out for Sony fanboy on Era, while I didn't even have a PS4 at that time. ☺
 

Álvaro de Campos

O nada que é tudo.
Mar 12, 2019
56
184
33
I've always found those sort of "circlejerk" type communities to be really pathetic.
It's like the old "any community that gets its laughs by pretending to be idiots will eventually be flooded by actual idiots who mistakenly believe that they're in good company" 4chan adage, except that it's a bunch of self-righteous/superiority-complex narcissists who ridicule and mock others in order to feel better about themselves. You'd think if they truly believed half the stuff they say they would actually attempt to convince others of it instead of gossiping behind others' backs like a bunch of high-school bullies.
I wonder if these people are pc gamers at all.
I wonder if these people are gamers at all.
 

MJunioR

Tim Sweeney 🤤
Mar 13, 2019
362
670
93
'Epic is not forcing publishers to take exclusivity contracts' has to be the dumbest troll argument you could use in favor of EGS exclusivity deals. I'm amused that I saw this argument being posted twice today by different people though.
 

Derrick01

MetaMember
Oct 6, 2018
204
675
93
If anything will get Epic to rush in a shopping cart finally it'll be the media getting everyone to laugh at them for incompetence like this. Watch them have it within the next month even though it was originally listed for 6+ months away on the roadmap (before that got delayed lol).
 

Kuro

John Wick: Chapter 3 - IN THEATERS
Dec 22, 2018
306
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Regarding the Gaming Circlejerk, as someone who doesn't really take gaming that seriously, it's kinda funny to watch honestly how both sides of the "war" are so hilariously over-the-top.
 
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TubaZef

MetaMember
Dec 19, 2018
65
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If anything, the Epic Games Store seem to have been rushed out to get the timing right on... something. The success of Fortnite and developers dissatisfaction with Steam more likely.

Dunno, but I feel that if Epic had waited at least 6 months and put more work into it, they would have avoided all the backlash.
 
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texhnolyze

Role Player
Oct 19, 2018
581
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Indonesia
One of popular online game stores here has also expressed their woes with EGS.
Their complaints include:
  • Payment errors so they have to constantly change the payment methods
  • Payment is blocked due to the constant change
  • Long loading in the website (because of the animation and popup)
  • There is no purchase as a gift (so you must ask for an ID and pass of the customers)
  • There is no shopping basket
Thus, they never promote EGS again and encourage their follower to buy games from there directly using applicable payments.
 
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Ryna

Overwatch husbando juggler
Apr 17, 2019
540
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Canada
If anything, the Epic Games Store seem to have been rushed out to get the timing right on... something. The success of Fortnite and developers dissatisfaction with Steam more likely.

Dunno, but I feel that if Epic had waited at least 6 months and put more work into it, they would have avoided all the backlash.
Eh people would have been upset regardless. Even though most of the complains are genuine there are real steam loyalists/fanboys that would be upset about it anyway.

Personally I would have been pretty miffed because im not a fan of 3rd party exclusives but I might have actually used the store anyway if it had achievements and supported my currency at launch.
 

Ruvon

Junior Member
One of popular online game stores here has also expressed their woes with EGS.

Their complaints include:
  • Payment errors so they have to constantly change the payment methods
  • Payment is blocked due to the constant change
  • Long loading in the website (because of the animation and popup)
  • There is no purchase as a gift (so you must ask for an ID and pass of the customers)
  • There is no shopping basket
Thus, they never promote EGS again and encourage their follower to buy games from there directly using applicable payments.
Can I ask which popular online gaming store are you talking about ?
 

Swenhir

Junior Member
Apr 18, 2019
101
278
63
Regarding the Gaming Circlejerk, as someone who doesn't really take gaming that seriously, it's kinda funny to watch honestly how both sides of the "war" are so hilariously over-the-top.
I'd like to hear what exacting is over the top about resisting Epic's bullshit. I have no doubt you can find people behaving extremely in that camp but I also like to think we have a point and have articulated it well enough.
 

ISee

loves cookies
Mar 1, 2019
303
347
63
I'd like to hear what exacting is over the top about resisting Epic's bullshit. I have no doubt you can find people behaving extremely in that camp but I also like to think we have a point and have articulated it well enough.

Here you go.

Because it's just a free client. Your game is still on PC. Lol. It helps the Devs. Steam is bad, cause it's a monopoly and there are too many Asset Flips. Valve doesn't care, epic does.

EGS is fine, everybody against it is stupid and just an extreme valve fan boy.
 
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Kuro

John Wick: Chapter 3 - IN THEATERS
Dec 22, 2018
306
350
63
I'd like to hear what exacting is over the top about resisting Epic's bullshit. I have no doubt you can find people behaving extremely in that camp but I also like to think we have a point and have articulated it well enough.
ISee above put it pretty well so I don't have to, most people react like it's the end of the world like that. If anything, the attitude many people have is throwing mud on the actual points as many of those are valid criticism against EGS.
It's fine to be against Epic, but in the end it's just another shop to buy games from.
 

Ge0force

Collector of hidden agendas
Jan 12, 2019
653
1,604
93
Belgium
Dunno, but I feel that if Epic had waited at least 6 months and put more work into it, they would have avoided all the backlash.
Many people would still be pissed about the exclusivity deals. Epic's moneyhatting may ruin any chance of pro-consumer competition between different storefronts for pc gaming.
Because it's just a free client. Your game is still on PC. Lol. It helps the Devs. Steam is bad, cause it's a monopoly and there are too many Asset Flips. Valve doesn't care, epic does.

EGS is fine, everybody against it is stupid and just an extreme valve fan boy.
Don't forget "if you hate Epic you hate developers" ;)
 

Swenhir

Junior Member
Apr 18, 2019
101
278
63
ISee above put it pretty well so I don't have to, most people react like it's the end of the world like that. If anything, the attitude many people have is throwing mud on the actual points as many of those are valid criticism against EGS.
It's fine to be against Epic, but in the end it's just another shop to buy games from.
I... think something got lost in translation here. That, or my sleep-deprived brain can't cope anymore and the multiverse is collapsing on itself.

ISee was pretty clearly formulating a parody of what the support toward EGS sounds like. That is, disingenuous and dismissive of facts while gaslighting people criticizing under a flood of whataboutisms.

Don't tell me you are one of those "it's just a launcher" people? Because while technically correct, it certainly doesn't do justice to what other feature-rich platforms are, or what the impact of exclusive moneyhatting on an open platform is.

To go back to your first post, I know where this "both sides" false equivalency leads and it's bullshit. I care about what's right and Epic's tactics aren't that.
 

Ge0force

Collector of hidden agendas
Jan 12, 2019
653
1,604
93
Belgium
Idk this whole debacle has showed me that I probably hate some developers quite a tad.
For me this depends on the situation: I can understand that small indie developers takes Epic's money if they are struggling to pay their wages. I don't like this decision, and therefor I won't ever buy their games that are involved in these moneyhats. But I do understand why they are doing it. I think we all can make a huge list with things that our conscience prevents us to do, until someone offered us a huge pile of cash. :giggle:

But publishers like Deep Silver, Annapurna and Take Two accepting Epic's bribes can GTFO as far as I'm concerned. This is nothing more than pure greed and I'm not even sure the actual developers of these games see a significant part of this money. I will no longer support these publishers as long as they keep making deals with Epic.

Developers selling their backers to Epic are even worse imo, and can burn in hell for betraying their fans. I won't ever support them anymore.

Oh and I truly hate Randy Pitchford. :mad:
 

Kuro

John Wick: Chapter 3 - IN THEATERS
Dec 22, 2018
306
350
63
I... think something got lost in translation here. That, or my sleep-deprived brain can't cope anymore and the multiverse is collapsing on itself.

ISee was pretty clearly formulating a parody of what the support toward EGS sounds like. That is, disingenuous and dismissive of facts while gaslighting people criticizing under a flood of whataboutisms.

Don't tell me you are one of those "it's just a launcher" people? Because while technically correct, it certainly doesn't do justice to what other feature-rich platforms are, or what the impact of exclusive moneyhatting on an open platform is.

To go back to your first post, I know where this "both sides" false equivalency leads and it's bullshit. I care about what's right and Epic's tactics aren't that.
It is just a launcher, is it not? I don't know what ISee's real point was then, but to me it looked like an ironic post about both sides reactions.
Epic's tactics might not be right, but making it sound like they moneyhat devs not to release games on PC is certainly not helping the argument side.
My only real issue with Epic is that their support for VR is non-existant. Most of the extra features I've gotten used to are missing but looking back how much Steam have had time I honestly didn't expect all of them out of the door and I'm willing to give them a benefit of doubt, they need to get those profiles and cloud saves running sooner or later.
To me EGS is testament to what makes PC Gaming so great, it's just an another store on open platform that anyone can choose to ignore, much like they can do with anything else, Steam/uPlay/Battle.net/Bethesda etc. etc. are not going anywhere because of them.
 

NeuralProxy

MetaMember
Nov 12, 2018
226
513
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Italy
It is just a launcher, is it not?
No, currently it's not just a launcher. It's the only company trying to bring the concept of third-party exclusives to PC (Discord too, but that didn't work so well for them and the two are really not comparable). If you see how Epic operates, it's clear as day that their main/only goal is not to compete with other stores and clients by offering a better product people like but push them out of business and create a monopoly by buying exclusives, which is something only they can do to this magnitude, because they're currently the richest player interested in doing that. If people, who supposedly like how open, variegate and pro-consumer PC as a platform is, end up supporting Epic and their store, they're actively going against their own interests because they're making Epic more likely to succeed in creating their monopoly, with their prices, conditions and rules.

The whole point is forcing Epic to turn into another launcher by stopping them from trying and become the only launcher.

Also, the whole "Steam back when it launched didn't have this and that feature, give them time" argument is really pointless. You don't expect a newborn brand of cars to make a carriage because other brands started like that, you expect them to make a car with the features you got used to.


EDIT:

Steam/uPlay/Battle.net/Bethesda etc. etc. are not going anywhere because of them.
And you can't be sure of this: a lot of companies that looked enormous and immortal have gone out of business because richer and more aggressive competitors have emerged, until other even richer and even more aggressive competitors will emerge.
 
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Ascheroth

Writing in the Megastructure
Nov 12, 2018
881
2,192
93
It is just a launcher, is it not?
Epic is a launcher while Steam is a platform. That's the difference. They are lacking something as basic as cloud saves ffs.
That in itself is not a problem. The open nature of the PC space allows any company that wants to (and has money) to try and enter the market.

The big problem is the approach they chose. They aren't competing with a better service or a USP like GOG has with DRM-free games, they are competing by throwing money around, buying up exclusives (or in some cases, paying money to just have games not on Steam) and that practice is against the very open nature of the PC itself. People have explained why this is dangerous better already, so I'll skip that.
 
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Stone Ocean

Big weeb
Apr 17, 2019
172
423
63
It would be really easy to ignore the EGS if they weren't actively trying to undermine the competition. Games that would otherwise be on better, more trustworthy services at better prices can now only be purchased on Epic's terms.

I use Origin, uPlay, Bnet, GOG and Steam. I have little issues with having several launchers. Epic isn't just another launcher.
 

Sampson

boop
Dec 11, 2018
1,209
2,091
113
Trabzon
I’ll add on here, as a dissenting opinion: I hate using multiple launchers for anything.

I hate that my digital movie collection is split across like five different services.

I hate that my digital book collection is split across three services and at least one defunct one.

I hate that I own digital music on at least three services.

And I hate having to remember where the eff my games are.

And on top of that, as has been said, it’s not another launcher. GOG is another launcher, one that I generally don’t love using, but I can decide whether I want to buy games there, directly from the developer, on a key reseller or on Steam.

The EGS is distinctly not “just another launcher,” because it’s a launcher you’re forced to use now if you want to play certain third-party PC games.
 

Kuro

John Wick: Chapter 3 - IN THEATERS
Dec 22, 2018
306
350
63
No, currently it's not just a launcher. It's the only company trying to bring the concept of third-party exclusives to PC (Discord too, but that didn't work so well for them and the two are really not comparable). If you see how Epic operates, it's clear as day that their main/only goal is not to compete with other stores and clients by offering a better product people like but push them out of business and create a monopoly by buying exclusives, which is something only they can do to this magnitude, because they're currently the richest player interested in doing that. If people, who supposedly like how open, variegate and pro-consumer PC as a platform is, end up supporting Epic and their store, they're actively going against their own interests because they're making Epic more likely to succeed in creating their monopoly, with their prices, conditions and rules.

The whole point is forcing Epic to turn into another launcher by stopping them from trying and become the only launcher.

Also, the whole "Steam back when it launched didn't have this and that feature, give them time" argument is really pointless. You don't expect a newborn brand of cars to make a carriage because other brands started like that, you expect them to make a car with the features you got used to.


EDIT: And you can't be sure of this: a lot of companies that looked enormous and immortal have gone out of business because richer and more aggressive competitors have emerged, until other even richer and even more aggressive competitors will emerge.
Aren't most of the moneyhats just timed? I agree they've gone the wrong way with this, rather than making the exclusivity timed they should have just offered 10€ off all pre-orders on the new games that are available on Steam too, like they're doing now with the Sale thing.
They can try becoming "the only" launcher but I think that's just once again exaggeration, if there's anyone silly enough to think that at EGS then they're bound to fail, at best they can hope for slight success and maybe in 5 years time after they actually start working on their features, VR, Input Emulation, they can dream of becoming the "one store to rule them all".
I'm not expecting them to match each and every feature other launchers offer that have been around for tens of years. No matter how much money they have, these things also take time. You can't sell a car if you can't drive it, but you can have a store and sell games even without cloud saves, that's easier to add afterwards than the engine.

If it makes you feel at ease, I can guarantee you Steam ain't going anywhere even if EGS finds success as a store, but looking at how things are now even that seems slightly uncertain.
Epic is a launcher while Steam is a platform. That's the difference. They are lacking something as basic as cloud saves ffs.
That in itself is not a problem. The open nature of the PC space allows any company that wants to (and has money) to try and enter the market.

The big problem is the approach they chose. They aren't competing with a better service or a USP like GOG has with DRM-free games, they are competing by throwing money around, buying up exclusives (or in some cases, paying money to just have games not on Steam) and that practice is against the very open nature of the PC itself. People have explained why this is dangerous better already, so I'll skip that.
Steam has come a long way for sure, but it sure as hell wasn't as rosy as it is now back when it launched, I remember cursing every time I had to launch it to play a game.
I’ll add on here, as a dissenting opinion: I hate using multiple launchers for anything.

I hate that my digital movie collection is split across like five different services.

I hate that my digital book collection is split across three services and at least one defunct one.

I hate that I own digital music on at least three services.

And I hate having to remember where the eff my games are.

And on top of that, as has been said, it’s not another launcher. GOG is another launcher, one that I generally don’t love using, but I can decide whether I want to buy games there, directly from the developer, on a key reseller or on Steam.

The EGS is distinctly not “just another launcher,” because it’s a launcher you’re forced to use now if you want to play certain third-party PC games.
You're forced to use Steam too for many games, and drm-free games on EGS work without launching EGS too just like on Steam. Even before offline mode I was able to just make shortcut for Ashen on my start menu and just boot the game.

I'm confused, what makes a launcher and platform difference? To me, the platform is PC, not Steam. Steam is just a launcher I have to launch everytime I want to play a game, just like EGS :suicide-blob:
 

NarohDethan

Anime threads enthusiast
Apr 6, 2019
1,140
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Aren't most of the moneyhats just timed? I agree they've gone the wrong way with this, rather than making the exclusivity timed they should have just offered 10€ off all pre-orders on the new games that are available on Steam too, like they're doing now with the Sale thing.
They can try becoming "the only" launcher but I think that's just once again exaggeration, if there's anyone silly enough to think that at EGS then they're bound to fail, at best they can hope for slight success and maybe in 5 years time after they actually start working on their features, VR, Input Emulation, they can dream of becoming the "one store to rule them all".
I'm not expecting them to match each and every feature other launchers offer that have been around for tens of years. No matter how much money they have, these things also take time. You can't sell a car if you can't drive it, but you can have a store and sell games even without cloud saves, that's easier to add afterwards than the engine.

If it makes you feel at ease, I can guarantee you Steam ain't going anywhere even if EGS finds success as a store, but looking at how things are now even that seems slightly uncertain.

Steam has come a long way for sure, but it sure as hell wasn't as rosy as it is now back when it launched, I remember cursing every time I had to launch it to play a game.

You're forced to use Steam too for many games, and drm-free games on EGS work without launching EGS too just like on Steam. Even before offline mode I was able to just make shortcut for Ashen on my start menu and just boot the game.

I'm confused, what makes a launcher and platform difference? To me, the platform is PC, not Steam. Steam is just a launcher I have to launch everytime I want to play a game, just like EGS :suicide-blob:
Steam offers many other services to customers and devs apart from launching games. Epic Launcher is an icon you have to click on before playing a game because there's literally no other thing to it.
 

Kuro

John Wick: Chapter 3 - IN THEATERS
Dec 22, 2018
306
350
63
Steam offers many other services to customers and devs apart from launching games. Epic Launcher is an icon you have to click on before playing a game because there's literally no other thing to it.
Not yet. Is this the core of the issue people have with EGS? Not having all features of Steam?
I mean, I'm using these programs to just play games - I love Steam for SteamVR, Steam Input and their pushes to try to bring communities together with proper profiles, and albeit they totally just copied Discord with the new Chat Rooms I think that was effort in the right direction even if it was forced on them, but people been waiting for them to update the ancient UI for what, like 2 years now? Sometimes I even wonder if we'll ever get that, seems more likely EGS gets cloud saves before that.
To what it boils down to, Steam too is just another program you have to close once you're done playing a game (or was until I started to keep it running in BG to use Steam Input on Desktop).
 

gabbo

MetaMember
Dec 22, 2018
523
679
93
Toronto
Not yet. Is this the core of the issue people have with EGS? Not having all features of Steam?
I mean, I'm using these programs to just play games - I love Steam for SteamVR, Steam Input and their pushes to try to bring communities together with proper profiles, and albeit they totally just copied Discord with the new Chat Rooms I think that was effort in the right direction even if it was forced on them, but people been waiting for them to update the ancient UI for what, like 2 years now? Sometimes I even wonder if we'll ever get that, seems more likely EGS gets cloud saves before that.
To what it boils down to, Steam too is just another program you have to close once you're done playing a game (or was until I started to keep it running in BG to use Steam Input on Desktop).
For the launcher application itself, its complete lack of features is one of a multitude of problems. The web store and by extension the app also have several other shortfalls. Lack of a cart, regional price issues, payment option, profile flagged for buying too many games, you know, to name a few.

are you separating egs launcher from the store?
 

NarohDethan

Anime threads enthusiast
Apr 6, 2019
1,140
2,303
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Not yet. Is this the core of the issue people have with EGS? Not having all features of Steam?
I mean, I'm using these programs to just play games - I love Steam for SteamVR, Steam Input and their pushes to try to bring communities together with proper profiles, and albeit they totally just copied Discord with the new Chat Rooms I think that was effort in the right direction even if it was forced on them, but people been waiting for them to update the ancient UI for what, like 2 years now? Sometimes I even wonder if we'll ever get that, seems more likely EGS gets cloud saves before that.
To what it boils down to, Steam too is just another program you have to close once you're done playing a game (or was until I started to keep it running in BG to use Steam Input on Desktop).
Steam's UI might be 'old' but it is completely functional. I guess you could call the Epic one minimalist but not because it has a pretty design lol

Buying exclusives is an attempt by Epic to 'consolise' the PC business by snatching exclusive contracts and that is a bad thing, it goes against the core PC experience. A lot of us were attracted to the PC due to the flexibility and openness it offers, and Epic is threatening those very things.
 

Derrick01

MetaMember
Oct 6, 2018
204
675
93
Not yet. Is this the core of the issue people have with EGS? Not having all features of Steam?
It's the moneyhatting. It really has no place in the PC space and should be fought against as hard as possible. Harder than when we pushed back against MS trying to make paying for online a thing. The ramifications it sets up, especially if companies start copying the idea, would be disastrous.

And no it's not the same thing as a developer/publisher choosing to use steamworks themselves with no payout from Valve. If they were choosing to make their games EGS only and no deal was being made things would be a little different than they are right now. People may still get mad at the devs for choosing that but it'd be hard to blame Epic for merely existing.
 

Digoman

Lurking in the Shadows
Dec 21, 2018
309
728
93
Not yet. Is this the core of the issue people have with EGS? Not having all features of Steam?
Of course I can only speak for myself, but the lack of features just amplifies the issue. The core problem is the whole philosophy behind what Epic is doing. For me PC gaming is about choice. We sacrifice a lot of convenience (it "just works" from consoles) so we can have whatever hardware we choose and do the most bizarre things with software (injectors, emulators). Because of all the options available (including piracy for some), a good service was the usual way to get customers. When Microsoft tried to make pay-for-online a thing, it failed very fast because we had other options.

And now comes Epic and their sole strategy was "take away options from customers". Not offer a better service, give incentives or actually develop their own games. Just try to hurt their biggest competitor by spending lots of cash. The Ubisoft deals shows this perfectly. Unless you live in a region where the Ubi store has no regional pricing, there is no reason to get the game on EGS. But nevertheless Epic still probably payed a lot of money for those games not be available on Steam. And because they have bottomless pit of money, they have a good chance of brute-forcing their success, even if a lot of people don't like what they are doing.

That they are doing all of that with a online store that doesn't have even the most basic features and isn't capable of having a sale of less then 100 games without embarrassing problems just reiterates how they place the "customer" at the bottom of their priorities.

And that's my problem with what Epic is doing. Everything they do boils down to "throw a lot of money at the problem" instead of trying compete on service quality. Had they took their time to make a good store, actually invested in developing exclusive games (even with partnerships), and yes, made a better deal for developers, than I would be buying games from this sale without issues.

Speaking of which, the current sale is finally something good for customers after of months of people complaining, but it also come with the fact that is clearly not a long term strategy since they are loosing money on each sale bigger than $15.
 

Sampson

boop
Dec 11, 2018
1,209
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Trabzon
You're forced to use Steam too for many games, and drm-free games on EGS work without launching EGS too just like on Steam. Even before offline mode I was able to just make shortcut for Ashen on my start menu and just boot the game.

I'm confused, what makes a launcher and platform difference? To me, the platform is PC, not Steam. Steam is just a launcher I have to launch everytime I want to play a game, just like EGS :suicide-blob:
Just for the sake of discussion, I'm going to go through every game currently installed on my laptop and see what's Steam exclusive:
  1. Cook, Serve, Delicious! - Available on GOG
  2. Crusader Kings II - Steam exclusive
  3. Defender's Quest: Valley of the Forgotten - Available on GOG, and DRM free directly from developer
  4. Dungeon Warfare - Steam exclusive (Although I'm fairly certain it started life as a Flash game and can still be played)
  5. Kingdom Rush: Frontiers - Available on GOG
  6. Oxygen Not Included - Available on EGS (soon), other Klei games are on GOG so it will presumably also be there once it leaves EA
  7. Pictopix - Steam exclusive (Yet another game that started life as a free Flash game)
  8. Project Highrise - Available on GOG
  9. RimWorld - Available DRM free directly from developer, and I believe Steam version is also DRM-free
  10. Rise to Ruins - Available on itch.io
  11. Civilization IV - Available on GOG
  12. Slay the Spire - Available on GOG
  13. Subnautica - Available on EGS
  14. Antichamber - Steam exclusive
  15. The Blackwell Legacy - Available on GOG and DRM free directly from developer
  16. BLUE REVOLVER - Available DRM free directly from developer
  17. Broken Sword - Shadow of the Templars: The Director's Cut - Available on GOG and Mac App Store
  18. Caves of Qud - Available on GOG, itch.io, GOG and DRM free directly from developer
  19. Cities: Skylines - Available as part of an Origin Access subscription
  20. Contradiction: Spot the Liar! - Available DRM free on Humble
  21. Creeper World 3: Arc Eternal - Available DRM free directly from developer
  22. CrossCode - Available on GOG and on itch.io
  23. The Dark Eye: Chains of Satinav - Available on GOG, Mac App Store, DRM free from Humble Bundle, and I'm fairly certain there was a German retail version bundled with Memoria that was DRM free.
  24. Dead Horizon - Free game, on GameJolt, Newgrounds, and for $5,000 on itch.io (dev's joke)
  25. Divinity: Original Sin 2 - Available on GOG
  26. Fahrenheit: Indigo Prophecy - Available on GOG
  27. Figment - Available on GOG
  28. Hard West - Available on GOG
  29. Hidden Folks - Available on Mac App Store and itch.io
  30. Himno - Steam exclusive (is a free game)
  31. HIVESWAP: Act 1 - Available DRM free on Humble
  32. Ichi - Steam exclusive
  33. Kathy Rain - Available on GOG and Kartridge
  34. Kingdoms and Castles - Available on GOG and itch.io
  35. The Last Door - Collector's Edition - Available on GOG and the Windows Store
  36. Lines Infinite - Steam exclusive
  37. LYNE - Available DRM free directly from developer
  38. Mini Metro - Available DRM free directly from developer and on GOG
  39. Monster Slayers - Available DRM free from Humble, also fairly certain this is an old, old Flash game
  40. Peggle Deluxe - Available on Origin
  41. Peggle Nights - Available on Origin
  42. Picross Touch - Steam exclusive (is a free game available via a web version)
  43. Poly Bridge - Steam exclusive
  44. Prison Architect - Available on GOG
  45. Regions of Ruin -Available DRM free from itch.io
  46. Rocket of Whispers: Prologue - Steam exclusive (really a free prologue set before the dev's other games)
  47. Shadowrun: Dragonfall - Director's Cut - Available on GOG
  48. Shatter - Available DRM free directly from developer and on Mac App Store
  49. Software Inc. - Available directly from developer
  50. Stardew Valley - Available on GOG
  51. Stephen's Sausage Roll - Available DRM free directly from developer
  52. Subnautica: Below Zero - Available on EGS
  53. Supply Chain Idle - Steam exclusive (but a free game available on Flash game sites)
  54. Tex Murphy: Mean Streets - Available on GOG
  55. Train Valley 2 - Steam exclusive
  56. Unavowed - Available on GOG and DRM free directly from developer
  57. Wayout - Steam exclusive
  58. Wayward - Steam exclusive (Still in EA, developer has promised to look into a GOG release)
  59. while True: Learn() - Available DRM free on Humble.
So of almost 60 games installed, only 14 are Steam exclusive (which means 76% are not exclusive), and of those 14, 4 are available via Flash/Unity web versions.

Granted it's anecdotal, but I'm fairly comfortable saying that it's an exaggeration to say that any meaningful number of games require Steam. The vast majority have GOG or Humble/developer direct versions being sold.

And here's the important part: absolutely zero of the "Steam exclusive" games I listed were paid to be exclusive.
 

blindrhythm

positively pudding
Apr 17, 2019
299
756
93
Jesus, that's too scary.
That was my exact thought too. That's far more than an, "Aw shucks guys, we're just so new at this whole store thing." It's as bad if not worse than Bethesda's handling of the support ticket problem that allowed people to access and edit tickets. I mean what Bethesda did was beyond stupid too but at least they didn't send info to random people themselves.
 

TubaZef

MetaMember
Dec 19, 2018
65
93
18
Of course I can only speak for myself, but the lack of features just amplifies the issue. The core problem is the whole philosophy behind what Epic is doing. For me PC gaming is about choice. We sacrifice a lot of convenience (it "just works" from consoles) so we can have whatever hardware we choose and do the most bizarre things with software (injectors, emulators). Because of all the options available (including piracy for some), a good service was the usual way to get customers. When Microsoft tried to make pay-for-online a thing, it failed very fast because we had other options.

And now comes Epic and their sole strategy was "take away options from customers". Not offer a better service, give incentives or actually develop their own games. Just try to hurt their biggest competitor by spending lots of cash. The Ubisoft deals shows this perfectly. Unless you live in a region where the Ubi store has no regional pricing, there is no reason to get the game on EGS. But nevertheless Epic still probably payed a lot of money for those games not be available on Steam. And because they have bottomless pit of money, they have a good chance of brute-forcing their success, even if a lot of people don't like what they are doing.

That they are doing all of that with a online store that doesn't have even the most basic features and isn't capable of having a sale of less then 100 games without embarrassing problems just reiterates how they place the "customer" at the bottom of their priorities.

And that's my problem with what Epic is doing. Everything they do boils down to "throw a lot of money at the problem" instead of trying compete on service quality. Had they took their time to make a good store, actually invested in developing exclusive games (even with partnerships), and yes, made a better deal for developers, than I would be buying games from this sale without issues.

Speaking of which, the current sale is finally something good for customers after of months of people complaining, but it also come with the fact that is clearly not a long term strategy since they are loosing money on each sale bigger than $15.
I understand your issues with it, but I don't think anyone can compete with Steam at this point just with "better service". EA, Ubisoft, GOG and others tried, heck, just recently Discord tried with exclusive games even and nobody cared. People have years of built libraries on Steam with hundreds of games, if they have the option to choose a store to buy from, it will be Steam, because they already invested so much there, they won't change. I know I won't! I have more than 800 games on Steam and if I have to choose between buying it on Steam or another store, I'll get it on Steam always!

Ubisoft knew it was useless to compete so they just added their games to Steam and make them open Uplay from there.

It's the same logic consoles have used for decades: Someone that built a Playstation library for years won't switch to Xbox just because it offers a better experience, they'll get a Xbox if it has an exclusive they want to play (I know it's a little more complex than this, but I think you get it).

So, giving more money to developers for exclusivity may seem unethical, but there's nothing really wrong going on there. It's one way to succeed in capitalism.

And here's the important part: absolutely zero of the "Steam exclusive" games I listed were paid to be exclusive.
Here's the thing: Steam doesn't need to pay anyone for exclusivity because everyone needs to be on it.
Steam grew so much that yes, it became pretty much a monopoly in the PC gaming space, if your game is not on Steam it pretty much doesn't exist (unless you're Fortnite, Minecraft or a Blizzard game). Even if you can buy the game in other stores, most of them still require Steam. That's why so many devs are happy with the EGS, because it puts some pressure on Valve.


Btw, I agree 100% that the EGS is lacking a lot of basic features and things like not allowing people to buy games fast or giving away personal data are absolutely atrocious.
 
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Sampson

boop
Dec 11, 2018
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Here's the thing: Steam doesn't need to pay anyone for exclusivity because everyone needs to be on it.
Steam grew so much that yes, it became pretty much a monopoly in the PC gaming space, if your game is not on Steam it pretty much doesn't exist (unless you're Fortnite, Minecraft or a Blizzard game).



It's not a monopoly, and anyone claiming it is should basically be ignored out of hand at this point.

At worst, Steam has a monopolistic position that they're not actually acting upon. Which makes sense, because Steam has basically acquired their (theoretically) monopolistic position basically by simply offering a quality product that consumers like, so the consumers flocked there and stayed there. Not by engaging in actually verified anti-competitive behavior like say, Microsoft in the mid-90s.

If Steam was actually acting like a monopoly, stores like GOG wouldn't exist anymore, and a store like the EGS would have been eliminated before it could have even drawn breath. But that didn't happen, because the store that supposedly has the monopolistic position (Steam) isn't actually doing what monopolies do: using their power to exclude competitors from the marketplace.

They're pretty simply offering a service that has acquired a critical mass of users through fairly natural popularity. Hell, they're not even doing the thing that a classic monopoly does, which is use their power to raise and manipulate pricing.

All this handwringing over Steam's monopoly comes across as highly dubious since most people complaining about it probably use (and benefit from) at least three services that are monopolistic in a given day (e.g., a certain search engine, video streaming platform and system OS).
Even if you can buy the game in other stores, most of them still require Steam.
I literally just spent an hour of my time writing a post documenting how 76% of my Steam library doesn't actually require Steam, and you have the audacity to quote my post and then claim the opposite?



Prove it then.
That's why so many devs are happy with the EGS, because it puts some pressure on Valve.
Devs are happy with the EGS because they're little heels that want to get a sweet moneyhat. They're not motivated by some altruistic concern about market competition or better pricing and services for consumers.

Developers just want to get more money, ideally by excluding their competitors from the market.
 

Digoman

Lurking in the Shadows
Dec 21, 2018
309
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I understand your issues with it, but I don't think anyone can compete with Steam at this point just with "better service". EA, Ubisoft, GOG and others tried, heck, just recently Discord tried with exclusive games even and nobody cared. People have years of built libraries on Steam with hundreds of games, if they have the option to choose a store to buy from, it will be Steam, because they already invested so much there, they won't change. I know I won't! I have more than 800 games on Steam and if I have to choose between buying it on Steam or another store, I'll get it on Steam always!

Ubisoft knew it was useless to compete so they just added their games to Steam and make them open Uplay from there.

It's the same logic consoles have used for decades: Someone that built a Playstation library for years won't switch to Xbox just because it offers a better experience, they'll get a Xbox if it has an exclusive they want to play (I know it's a little more complex than this, but I think you get it).

So, giving more money to developers for exclusivity may seem unethical, but there's nothing really wrong going on there. It's one way to succeed in capitalism.
Yes, Steam has the "home advantage" here, no one is denying that. But EA was more or less successful, or at least enough that they didn't need to come back. Also with Origin Access there is a real benefit if you choose to use their platform. Getting out of Steam was always Ubisoft plan and they just used Epic to do it while getting paid and avoiding most of the "blame". GOG is a little more complicated because what they offer of value (no DRM) also limits their archive. Bethesda failed because their client is a mess and they don't have Fortnite money.

And with the amount of money Epic is throwing at this, they were other ways. First party/"Second Party" exclusives may not be completely appreciated but at this point are not a huge problem. So Epic could have developed games or actually made partnership to do so. This indie developer made some interesting games? How about give him some more resources and support and see what he comes up with. Bonus points if their previous work was really good but not super successful. Or maybe do what Ubisoft did and let their developers out the Fortnite crunch to do side projects like Valiant Hearts.

This sale may be a loss leader, but it also is a good strategy, if it was planned better. The general idea is that would be nice if they are actually contributing something (with the risks that come with that) instead of just taking it away from other places. And even then... it just looks so... petty, with last minute deals for anything they find "shinny".

And to reiterate, they are doing all of that without even bothering to have a store/client with some pretty basic functionality like cart, cloud saves, and so on.

But in the end, as a customer, even if being this aggressive was the only way to compete, why is that a good thing if the result for me is more expensive games (no more discounts on third-party key sellers) and a client/store with less features, including some that I find important (like users reviews)? I don't believe in "trickle down" effects at all so this competition is just leaving me with a worse service.
 
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Swenhir

Junior Member
Apr 18, 2019
101
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I don't want to dogpile you because while I was asleep many people have already replied to you. I'll just address the point they didn't :

Epic's tactics might not be right, but making it sound like they moneyhat devs not to release games on PC is certainly not helping the argument side.
I'm not making it sound like it, it's literally what is happening. Just a sanity check : you really did mean you don't believe Epic paid publishers and studios to have exclusivity deals with regards to which storefronts/platforms are allowed to stell their games on PC? Because pretty much everyone involved with Epic has come out and said it out loud.

EGS is testament to what makes PC Gaming so great, it's just an another store on open platform that anyone can choose to ignore, much like they can do with anything else
I agree, I think everyone is with you here. The problem with EGS is that if those exclusivity deals become commonplace, the PC will loose that openness and become balkanized between platforms. That's the thing with exclusivity, the platforms no longer compete on features or services, they compete on who can grab the most games which tends to lead to only enormous companies surviving. And since features don't matter anymore, you can bet the state of PC gaming will go right back to the 2000 when piracy wasn't a solved problem and the user experience was so bad it still gives PC a bad name even today. And that's without even speculating on what kind of abuses companies in the gaming industry will try to get away with once they don't have to compete with each other on service anymore. Consoles are a good example. How would you like having to pay for multiplayer on PC?

I'm not even going into why Valve is so much more constructive than Epic. Those are just the basic theories around exclusivity, ignoring everything about the companies themselves.

None of this even addresses the question of why the fuck should we allow Epic to get away with pulling this crap? If they only have exclusivity moneyhats to offer as their reason to exist on PC, then they shouldn't exist at all. The PC market doesn't owe every company a chance to benefit from it if they don't have something good to offer in return.

So uhh


Just another launcher
I saw this one on reddit and it sounds a little fake. I'd like to see the receipts on this one.
 

TubaZef

MetaMember
Dec 19, 2018
65
93
18
It's not a monopoly, and anyone claiming it is should basically be ignored out of hand at this point.

At worst, Steam has a monopolistic position that they're not actually acting upon. Which makes sense, because Steam has basically acquired their (theoretically) monopolistic position basically by simply offering a quality product that consumers like, so the consumers flocked there and stayed there. Not by engaging in actually verified anti-competitive behavior like say, Microsoft in the mid-90s.

If Steam was actually acting like a monopoly, stores like GOG wouldn't exist anymore, and a store like the EGS would have been eliminated before it could have even drawn breath. But that didn't happen, because the store that supposedly has the monopolistic position (Steam) isn't actually doing what monopolies do: using their power to exclude competitors from the marketplace.

They're pretty simply offering a service that has acquired a critical mass of users through fairly natural popularity. Hell, they're not even doing the thing that a classic monopoly does, which is use their power to raise and manipulate pricing.

All this handwringing over Steam's monopoly comes across as highly dubious since most people complaining about it probably use (and benefit from) at least three services that are monopolistic in a given day (e.g., a certain search engine, video streaming platform and system OS).
Some fair points, indeed they aren't doing anything to guarantee their monopolistic position. But at the same time that puts them in a very comfortable position where they don't feel pressured to fix any of their problems.

Devs are happy with the EGS because they're little heels that want to get a sweet moneyhat. They're not motivated by some altruistic concern about market competition or better pricing and services for consumers.
The thing is, the biggest problems with Steam are on the devs side. Things like curation, visibility, what's allowed on the platform (there were a lot of issues last year with games being removed and put back with no clear reason) and others. Devs have been complaining for a long time and Valve does nothing or just things worse. And devs can't just say "I won't put my game on Steam", because if your game isn't on Steam, it pretty much doesn't exist.

That's what devs want from competition, that EGS forces Steam to look into their complaints.

And of course, money is a big incentive to them, why not? They need to survive! Have you seem the amount of mass layoffs the industry had in the last year alone? The level of uncertainty in this industry is absurd! If I owned a studio and Epic offered me a deal that would guarantee my studio to survive and make the next game, I would jump in instantly.

I literally just spent an hour of my time writing a post documenting how 76% of my Steam library doesn't actually require Steam, and you have the audacity to quote my post and then claim the opposite?
Alright, my bad. Pretty much all of them are also on Steam though. Because like I said before, not being on Steam is not a viable option. And that's the main issue here.

So, when ppl talk about Steam being a monopoly, that's pretty much what they mean. I understand that it's much easier to look at it that way if you're a dev (I am one btw).
 

NarohDethan

Anime threads enthusiast
Apr 6, 2019
1,140
2,303
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The thing is, the biggest problems with Steam are on the devs side. Things like curation, visibility, what's allowed on the platform (there were a lot of issues last year with games being removed and put back with no clear reason) and others. Devs have been complaining for a long time and Valve does nothing or just things worse. And devs can't just say "I won't put my game on Steam", because if your game isn't on Steam, it pretty much doesn't exist.
This problem is effectively unsolvable. Just look at the eShop.

And of course, money is a big incentive to them, why not? They need to survive! Have you seem the amount of mass layoffs the industry had in the last year alone? The level of uncertainty in this industry is absurd! If I owned a studio and Epic offered me a deal that would guarantee my studio to survive and make the next game, I would jump in instantly.
Pretty sure Ubisoft isnt starving, nor 4A games, Annapurna, Supergiant, etc. The only smallish studio they recruited are the Dangerous Driving guys, and they delivered a subpar product.