Community MetaSteam | November 2019 - You Can't Spell Steam Without EA

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Alextended

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I'd heard they were making an "official" cable that's USB C at both ends, plus it's $80!
They are, yes, but that's not a "requirement". We also have no clue if it will also include a C to 3 adapter, plus it could well be overkill, a fiber optic cable with USB ends, I'm not sure if that will make a difference given it still connects to USB and is limited by its bandwidth anyway but we'll see whenever that comes along if it provides a better experience or not compared to other high quality cables that are bound to be tested or even made specifically for such a use case.
 
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Amzin

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For my experience, the tracking on WMR (Odyssey+) is perfect 99% of the time, but it does get iffy in outlier situations that rigs using lighthouse sensors (or whatever the current parlance is) wouldn't blink at. For games where your focus is always in front of you in a big circle, like Beat Saber and Pistol Whip, you will basically never see an issue. Games that are more 360 degree like Until You Fall can throw you off, you have to be more careful keeping your view in the right place.

That being said, it was my first dabble with VR to see if I like it, and for $250 used off Amazon it was hard to argue with. I don't think I would bother to upgrade it except to a "big ticket" rig like Index if I feel like I have the money and need.

As an aside, if you have a limited play space and are looking at VR, consider getting a nice mat to help not only stay comfortable but keep you from wandering off point. I use my standing desk mat I bought some years back and it works perfectly. It's not cheap for a good one but mine is still like new after 5 years of using it regularly.
 
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5taquitos

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AoE2DE Steam version is freezing on match load, regardless of whether or not I have the Enhanced Graphics pack enabled. Sometimes it loads the game after being frozen for a minute or two, and sometimes it just crashes. So annoying.
 

arts&crafts

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60% off
This is the "diablo-clone" one right? I have had on my list since launch but that still seems too high given the reviews. This looks like a perfect bundle game down the line for me.
 

Alextended

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Trisolarian

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You mentioned this before but never replied to me, kind sir, do you have anything new to add or are you stuck on repeat?
Community - MetaSteam | November 2019 - You Can't Spell Steam Without EA
Keep playing Doom on a keyboard cos mice are expensive gimmicks and Quake without 3D acceleration cos GPUs are expensive gimmicks I guess.
In the drive by posters defense, I will say that the PC VR space is still for more well heeled gamers. It isn't as expensive as it once was, when it was for like the 1% of gamers back in 2016-2017 but now its for like the top 20% of games. Not all PC gamers have a ton of money and although I appreciate the aspect of PC gaming that moves the medium forward in terms of both hardware and software, I still chaff at the assumption that everyone who identifies as a PC gamer has even halfway decent hardware. A lot of us don't.
 

fantomena

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In the drive by posters defense, I will say that the PC VR space is still for more well heeled gamers. It isn't as expensive as it once was, when it was for like the 1% of gamers back in 2016-2017 but now its for like the top 20% of games. Not all PC gamers have a ton of money and although I appreciate the aspect of PC gaming that moves the medium forward in terms of both hardware and software, I still chaff at the assumption that everyone who identifies as a PC gamer has even halfway decent hardware. A lot of us don't.
Well the poster didn't talk about VR being expensive or wherever the poster has room for VR or not, but it being gimmicky.
 

Trisolarian

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Well the poster didn't talk about VR being expensive or wherever the poster has room for VR or not, but it being gimmicky.
Yes, although the "wealthy" is a direct reference to the cost of VR.

VR isn't a gimmick. My better heeled friend who is like the 'gadget master' with 1080ti PC, 4k tv, PS4 pro, $300 satilite speakers, has an HTC Vive. From what I have been able to sample through him, VR is SUPER impressive. And it can be a blast. None of this means that a VR headset is the GPU or mouse of the future for PC gaming and its silly to assert that it.
 

Alextended

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Yes, although the "wealthy" is a direct reference to the cost of VR.

VR isn't a gimmick. My better heeled friend who is like the 'gadget master' with 1080ti PC, 4k tv, PS4 pro, $300 satilite speakers, has an HTC Vive. From what I have been able to sample through him, VR is SUPER impressive. And it can be a blast. None of this means that a VR headset is the GPU or mouse of the future for PC gaming and its silly to assert that it.
How do you know what it is or isn't without trying it? Not that I said it will match either of those 1:1 since it's obviously something different altogether, just as a GPU doesn't match a mouse 1:1 itself, but the comparison was appropriate since it allows a whole host of different experiences you simply can't have without it and can fundamentally change gameplay just as mouse controls or analog sticks and games just as GPUs did, the main difference being it won't necessarily replace what came before but instead co-exist, which doesn't make it any less important for gaming as a whole, just as 3D games didn't replace 2D games as everyone plays both but clearly the advent of 3D was a ground breaking milestone that changed the shape of gaming forever and continued(es) to improve it. So yes VR is more comparable in some ways to those advancements than comparable to some accessory like a racing wheel or a hotas flight kit or whatever because it applies to pretty much any genre or new experiences altogether and therefor gaming as a whole rather than restrict itself to specific niches (and can even take advantage of those accessories just as non VR PC games do if there's a need for or benefit from it).

And no, one doesn't have to be rich like your friend to get into VR, you don't have to want VR or prioritize it over other things/needs but that's a disingenuous claim. I postponed a CPU (mobo, ram, the works) upgrade and got a VR kit instead, not the most high end or the cheapest but that's all it took for me. Next gen even PSVR is likely to be much more comparable in capabilities to PC VR than its current iteration and open it up to more people. The Quest line is also likely to continue as another option that doesn't even require a console or PC and is instead its own platform with a cost similar to any console, and will also probably spawn competitors that may be cheaper or more expensive too depending on what one is looking for and how things develop.
 
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Amzin

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I think VR is quite a bit different from other input paradigms in PC development.

For one, it is always going to be significantly more expensive than any other mainstream peripheral - there's just no way for it not to be. This will always be an issue for VR development and trying to get VR more popularity.

For another, it's almost a complete separation from the normal way we interact with PCs. Mice added to what a keyboard could do, once software was properly designed for it. Controllers are fast to pick up and perform specific styles of input with (fighting games, platformers, 3rd person action games mostly) and some controllers you can sorta fudge Windows stuff with. VR you have to put on the headset, boot up special program, turn on controllers, and there's a lot of stuff that just isn't there yet as far as productivity and usability goes and honestly there's no way to make two wiggle sticks as fast as a KB+M for most day to day tasks, without doing something crazy like having a button for every finger on the wands and a bunch of dynamic hotkeys but that never took off in the past when it was presented.

It's true you can just put your headset on and use a KB+M or controller and play a lot of stuff you can on a monitor, but most of the time, why would you? It's just going to be more uncomfortable and more of a hassle (because you still have to deal with VR software to get the headset displaying at all) for arguably a neutral or worse experience.

VR is a lot of fun, and offers a ton of new experiences and new ways to explore things, and even now in near infancy it's showing really great things. But, to me it feels like a console that plugs in to my PC - it is separate, and even having grown up with DOS into Windows 3.1 to Windows 95 to now I just don't see VR ever becoming the default or norm for gaming, PC or otherwise. I think adoption will increase and more and more traditional games will have tie-ins to VR but not be designed for it, and VR games will become more and more polished and impressive.

All that said, VR is hardly a gimmick, and it also isn't for everyone (much like all types of gaming or input). I think treating VR as its' own thing is the fairest way. Half-life VR exists because they wanted to make a game for VR, not because they wanted to make a Half-life game specifically. It could be good or bad (Valve's recent track record is spotty) but it's crazy to think it would exist if VR wasn't a thing.
 
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Wok

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My better heeled friend who is like the 'gadget master'
lmao

We all have that friend. :cpc_smile: The last time he blew my mind was when he was paying with his watch. Nowadays, shopkeepers are used to it, but when he was already used to doing it, shopkeepers were like "what is this shenanigan? Did I get my money? Or is that a new scam?" :thinking: Dude also has programmed his apartment. Talk to your lights, items, etc. So crazy! :cpc_lol: Meanwhile, here I am hoping I can afford a more comfortable piece of furniture one day. :troll: We live close-by, but we live on different planets. :ninja: He looks self-aware, yet I cannot burst his bubble by showing him my place, it would be such a shock.
 
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fantomena

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I also see a lot about "Just make a non-VR mod for it" or "Just make a pancake version of it" (pancake is what VR community calls non-VR gaming).

None of the games that has both a VR mode and a non-VR mode has any deep VR interactions. Like Skyrim for example, many uses that as an example. However, unless I misremember, if you wanna open a door in Skyrim VR, you have to click on a butoon on your controller, that's shitty VR interaction. Good VR interaction is that you actually manually open the door like you do in the real world and so far, only games that are built up from the ground for VR does that, from what I can remember playing.

VR is all about interaction and doing things in-game like you would in the real life.

The Boneworks devs have talked about it in some videos. Like in a "regular" game you click a button to put the crowbar between to door to close it from an alien invasion, but in VR you have to do it manually. Shown here:

 

Trisolarian

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How do you know what it is or isn't without trying it? Not that I said it will match either of those 1:1 since it's obviously something different altogether, just as a GPU doesn't match a mouse 1:1 itself, but the comparison was appropriate since it allows a whole host of different experiences you simply can't have without it and can fundamentally change gameplay just as mouse controls or analog sticks and games just as GPUs did, the main difference being it won't necessarily replace what came before but instead co-exist, which doesn't make it any less important for gaming as a whole (just as 3D games didn't replace 2D games as everyone plays both but clearly the advent of 3D was a ground breaking milestone that changed the shape of gaming forever and continued(es) to improve).

And no, one doesn't have to be rich like your friend to get into VR, you don't have to want VR or prioritize it over other things but that's a disingenuous claim. I postponed a CPU upgrade and got a VR kit instead, not the most high end or the cheapest but that's all it took. Next gen even PSVR is likely to be much more comparable in capabilities to PC VR than the current iteration and open it up to even more people. The Quest line is also likely to continue and therefor be another option that doesn't even require a console or PC and is instead its own console-like platform with a cost similar to any console, etc.
I know VR isn't a gimmick and the games/experiences enabled by them are not gimmicks.

VR is already co existing and it will not be a "PC only" kind of thing, for sure. Console VR is coming along nicely and I've considered PS VR as a cost effective way to get into VR.

It isn't disingenuous in the slightest to suggest that PC only VR is expensive, especially when its not just the VR kit but the new CPU/GPU/RAM ect to reach minimum requirements. The cost is going down but a console and a VR kit is an easier reach.

A note about "rich", my friend isn't wealthy by income standards but has little outstanding debt, a very good income and reasonable rent in a part of the world where rent is absurd, the majority of my generation is drowning in soul crushing debt and wages lag. So yes, you don't have to be rich. But you sure as fuck have to NOT be poor as hell.
 
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Alextended

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I don't think someone "poor as hell" would play a new AAA FPS/A like Half-Life in the next 5 years regardless if it was VR or not though. And yes PC gaming can have a higher than consoles entry fee but again you tend to save in other ways but I never said I speak for PC VR specifically, but VR as a whole. And since you mention PSVR as more affordable you should know there have been PC VR sets close to that price, not the best ones but not awful.
 
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Trisolarian

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I don't think someone "poor as hell" would play a new AAA FPS/A like Half-Life in the next decade regardless if it was VR or not though. So yeah I guess VR is as rich-friendly as PC gaming as a whole, and by PC gaming meaning the way most people treat it, not someone that would only buy indie games, games from gog.com and the odd non-indie game that is also low-end friendly.
I'm not a fan of this take, at all.

1.) There are sub-reddits full of people who share tips and stories of playing AAA games on the lowest possible hardware. These people are out there.
2.) I don't give a rat's ass how most people treat it, someone playing indie games, e sports titles and gog.com is still a pc gamer.
 
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Alextended

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I'm not a fan of this take, at all.

1.) There are sub-reddits full of people who share tips and stories of playing AAA games on the lowest possible hardware. These people are out there.
2.) I don't give a rat's ass how most people treat it, someone playing indie games, e sports titles and gog.com is still a pc gamer.
There will probably be people who want to VR game or PC VR game on the lowest possible hardware too, so? I mean, there are already and that's all the"VR ready" guidelines were trying to help people with. I never said one who does that isn't a gamer either. Yes, they are. Just not what most discuss when on topic.
 
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Trisolarian

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There will probably be people who want to VR game on the lowest possible hardware too, so?
There is no onboard laptop GPU capable of supporting at VR headset, so they'll have to wait a few years.

Yes I see your edit and I now understand what you meant by the "general view of PC gamer" and not your own. I just hate that view, it fosters bad blood between mobile/console/pc gamers.

I am a little surprised that HL Alyx isn't also PS:VR and Occulus Go compatible but we don't know the features of the game yet so, who knows.
 
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Alextended

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I am a little surprised that HL Alyx isn't also PS:VR and Occulus Go compatible but we don't know the features of the game yet so, who knows.
Why, would you also be surprised if a new non-VR half-life was't compatible with smartphones that share oculus go specs?

But yes, PC VR offers a lot more than the current PSVR and Oculus Go, namely independent hand tracking in 3D space without sacrifcing other inputs.

Quest also offers that but Valve has no reason to support it as a platform and it's likely still a higher end PC game than the still smartphone level specs of Quest.

Have you even checked what we're discussing?
 
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fantomena

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There is no onboard laptop GPU capable of supporting at VR headset, so they'll have to wait a few years.

I am a little surprised that HL Alyx isn't also PS:VR and Occulus Go compatible but we don't know the features of the game yet so, who knows.
I don't see how it would be possible for HLA to support PSVR due to PSVRs outdated tracking metod (no room scale) and the move controllers. Oculus Go is lacking even more than Oculus Quest and HLA is not coming to Quest as it is SteamVR exclusive and the Quest would be way too weak for HLA.

I own PSVR and Rift and PSVR is inferior in every way in regards to technology. PSVR doesn't allow you to turn your controllers around because the PS camera needs to see the controllers all the time.
 

Trisolarian

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Why, would you also be surprised if a new non-VR half-life was't compatible with smartphones that share oculus go specs?

But yes, PC vr offers a lot more than PSVR and oculus go, namely independent hand tracking in 3D space without sacrifciing other inputs.

Have you even checked what we're discussing?
I haven't followed your discussions about HL Alyx, from the thread in depth.

I am aware of whats available on something like the HTC Vive, because that's the only one I've used and what you can do with cell phone VR. No one has seen gameplay yet so we don't know what features the game will use.
 

Alextended

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I'm not commenting on the theoretical possibilities, yes "games" are possible on those platforms, just your "surprise" that it's not going to be available for those since, yes, we haven't seen it (but we have seen the VR tech Valve has been working on and the fruits of their efforts with the Vive and now the Index, them designing a game that doesn't actually utilize their technology in any real way would be quite surprising, not the opposite).

Again, I doubt you'd be surprised a new non VR half-life isn't available on android/iphones so I don't see why the surprise over it not being for Oculus Go.
 

fantomena

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If Valve wants to blow our minds, innovate and show what VR is truly capable of, HLA will not be getting a PSVR, Oculus Go or Quest version.

Valve is in a such good position that they don't need to make a profit of HLA. They only need to make such a blowingly cool and innovative game the mainstream will at least have the thought process of thinking about VR.
 

Knurek

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I just hope the impending, inevitable flop of Half Life VR will not be bad enough that Valve has to sell off Steam.
Fuck VR
 
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Trisolarian

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I'm not commenting on the theoretical possibilities, yes "games" are possible on those platforms, just your "surprise" that it's not going to be available for those since, yes, we haven't seen it (but we have seen the VR tech Valve has been working on and the fruits of their efforts with the Vive and now the Index).
Are the "" 's needed? No they aren't. So more affordable VR options are not good enough? Ok, in your opinion.
 

Alextended

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Are the "" 's needed? No they aren't. So more affordable VR options are not good enough? Ok, in your opinion.
How's that a reply to anything I said? And no it's not an opinion that they aren't good enough for some things, some of which HL:A may want to do. Just fact.

Again, why is Oculus Go not getting a new VR Half-Life a surprise if android phones with similar specs not getting a new non VR Half-Life wouldn't be?

Unless after several posts on the matter you concede you'd be surprised in that case also, so I can conclude you're just easily surprised and move on.
 

Trisolarian

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How's that a reply to anything I said?

Again, why is Oculus Go not getting a new VR Half-Life a surprise if android phones with similar specs not getting a new non VR Half-Life wouldn't be?

Unless after several posts on the matter you concede you'd be surprised in that case also, so I can conclude you're just easily surprised and move on.
Well, because HL was valves major franchise for many years and they we all widely accessible, Even HL2 could be played on an FX5200 and a PIII. The higher level PC VR set up that it is thought the new game is designed for isn't as accessible.

Also, you have a problem with the word surprise?
 

Mivey

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A question for people with a Valve Index, or any other Valve VR headset: Is it easily possible to go from "seated VR" setup to "room-scale" VR? Like, is it hard to move those stations around? I could see myself switching back and forth between those two it it's at all possible
 

Alextended

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Well, because HL was valves major franchise for many years and they we all widely accessible, Even HL2 could be played on an FX5200 and a PIII. The higher level PC VR set up that it is thought the new game is designed for isn't as accessible.

Also, you have a problem with the word surprise?
How is Half-Life 2 a 2004 PC game, running on low end PC hardware any kind of equivalent to Half-Life: Alyx, a 2020 (?) PC game not running on smartphone hardware like Oculus Go's that doesn't even have enough inputs to match 2004 PC games of the sort, never mind a 2020 PC game? A non VR Half-Life also wouldn't run on smartphones, or a Pentium III. Or at least it wouldn't be surprising if it didn't. I don't have a problem, I'm discussing.
 
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fantomena

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A question for people with a Valve Index, or any other Valve VR headset: Is it easily possible to go from "seated VR" setup to "room-scale" VR? Like, is it hard to move those stations around? I could see myself switching back and forth between those two it it's at all possible
What do you mean?

Like, if Im playing a game sitting and I change to another game, I just stand up, move my chair away and start the new room scale game.
 

Trisolarian

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How is Half-Life 2 a 2004 PC game, running on low end PC hardware any kind of equivalent to Half-Life: Alyx, a 2020 (?) PC game not running on smartphone hardware like Oculus Go's that doesn't even have enough inputs to match 2004 PC games, never mind a 2020 PC game?

I don't have a problem, I'm discussing.
I'm saying point blank what I was surprised at!!! JFC, I just threw out the oculus go bc that's the entry VR experience and if valve is focused on VR, I'd expect them to offer a VR product that might translate down like the settings on a PC game.

And please, you do have a problem.
 

Mivey

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What do you mean?

Like, if Im playing a game sitting and I change to another game, I just stand up, move my chair and start the new room scale game.
Yeah, that answers my question, actually, so you an just sit down in front of a chair in the same area, no need to move anything?
 

Alextended

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I'm saying point blank what I was surprised at!!! JFC, I just threw out the oculus go bc that's the entry VR experience and if valve is focused on VR, I'd expect them to offer a VR product that might translate down like the settings on a PC game.

And please, you do have a problem.
And I'm explaining your surprise has no real basis when you wouldn't also be surprised a new PC Half-Life doesn't run on smartphones.

But okay. You do you. Moving on.

What problem do I have?

And you can get PC VR for similar cost to PSVR actually, something like the ACER WMR set launched at $250 and that was years ago, you can find it cheaper.

Not to mention the used market.

Yes you still need a gaming PC to run PC games though and each game has its own set of hardware requirements up to the devs, VR doesn't change that.

Will it be the best? Nope, just as most people won't have the best graphics card to play with. Is it still out of your range/desire? Maybe, up to you. Just as a non VR new Half-Life could be incompatible with any hardware some have even after potential low end user hacks discovered to try and run it on even less.
 
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fantomena

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I'm saying point blank what I was surprised at!!! JFC, I just threw out the oculus go bc that's the entry VR experience and if valve is focused on VR, I'd expect them to offer a VR product that might translate down like the settings on a PC game.

And please, you do have a problem.
Thing is, making a VR game for PCVR and Oculus GO, built up, doesn't work in the same way like changing PC settings.

It's due to differences in the VR headset hardware, tracking technology and controllers.

The Vive and Index won't play the game the same way because the Index controllers have hand tracking, but Vive controllers do not. VIVE owners will be able to play the game, but not with hand tracking like the Index.

Yeah, that answers my question, actually, so you an just sit down in front of a chair in the same area, no need to move anything?
No. I setup-ed my Rift in january and the sensors which are tracking my headset and controllers have been in the exact same spot. If I start playing a game sitting and I decide to wanna stand or walk around I just stand up, move my chair and walk around. Some games of course are meant for sitting and some are meant for room scale (walking around) and between those I simply just stand up from my chair and move my chair away from me. Just make sure you move all furnite so you don't end up smashing something.

It's the same for Vive/Vive Pro/Index. Just that those just base station that requires them to be connected at a socket. Rift sensors which is used for the original Rift (not sold anymore unless you actually can find it in a shop) requires sensors connected to PC with USB 3.
 

Trisolarian

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And I'm explaining your surprise has no real basis when you wouldn't also be surprised a new PC Half-Life doesn't run on smartphones.

But okay. You do you. Moving on.

What problem do I have?

And you can get PC VR for similar cost to PSVR actually, something like the ACER WMR set launched at $250 and that was years ago.

Will it be the best? Nope, just as most people won't have the best graphics card to play with. Is it still out of your range/desire? Maybe, up to you.
The problem is that you're not a fan of people pointing out that VR is expensive and that even a mid range pc gaming setup isn't in the budget of many gamers.

Thing is, making a VR game for PCVR and Oculus GO, built up, doesn't work in the same way like changing PC settings.

It's due to differences in the VR headset hardware, tracking technology and controllers.

The Vive and Index won't play the game the same way because the Index controllers have hand tracking, but Vive controllers do not. VIVE owners will be able to play the game, but not with hand tracking like the Index.



No. I setup-ed my Rift in january and the sensors which are tracking my headset and controllers have been in the exact same spot. If I start playing a game sitting and I decide to wanna stand or walk around I just stand up, move my chair and walk around. Some games of course are meant for sitting and some are meant for room scale (walking around) and between those I simply just stand up from my chair and move my chair away from me.

It's the same for Vive/Vive Pro/Index. Just that those just base station that requires them to be connected at a socket. Rift sensors which is used for the original Rift (not sold anymore unless you actually can find it in a shop) requires sensors connected to PC with USB 3.
I get that it isn't the same and I understand the difference in features between different sets, I've seen them in person. It's weird to have a supposed AAA half life game to be released for such a small install base.
 
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derExperte

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I'm saying point blank what I was surprised at!!! JFC, I just threw out the oculus go bc that's the entry VR experience and if valve is focused on VR, I'd expect them to offer a VR product that might translate down like the settings on a PC game.

And please, you do have a problem.
I had an Oculus Go for a short while and it is so limited compared to other VR headsets and missing almost all features that make VR worthwhile that I'd immediately lose trust in Valve doing anything interesting with HLVR if they'd support the Go or any of the other low-end sets. If your game can scale down to that level it can also be easily done as a kb/m controller FPS.
 
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fantomena

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I get that it isn't the same and I understand the difference in features between different sets, I've seen them in person. It's weird to have a supposed AAA half life game to be released for such a small install base.
Valves whole point with HLA is to get people interested in PCVR and SteamVR. They don't need to sell millions of copies, they only need to make sure that people can see what PCVR can do and make people think about it.
 
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Alextended

Segata's Disciple
Jan 28, 2019
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The problem is that you're not a fan of people pointing out that VR is expensive and that even a mid range pc gaming setup isn't in the budget of many gamers.
I'm not a fan of any thing or any one in general, I don't the fan thing often, why is that a problem?

I don't have any issue with such characteristics though if that's what you're implying.

But nobody's surprised the next Assassin's Creed doesn't run on a toaster either.

I didn't have the hardware to run Witcher 2 when that came out, but I wasn't surprised. I had plenty other games from gog too, rather than whine @ CDP.

Such is life, its surprises lie elsewhere for me I guess. Moving on.
 
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