Community MetaSteam | June 2023 - halfway through the year

[Alexandros]

Exclusivity has nothing to do with this.

Yes, it does. By comparing first-party and third-party releases you are comparing apples and oranges. First-party games by console makers get an absolutely massive marketing push because they are not just supposed to sell lots of units, they are also supposed to move consoles that bring in third-party revenue. Sony is using Final Fantasy to plug holes in their own exclusive release schedule and they throw a bone to Square Enix every now and then marketing-wise but they will never, ever give a third-party game even close to the same marketing push as a first party one.

Square's leadership is as dumb as bricks because they have stunted the growth of one of gaming's most historic franchises in exchange for whatever measly scraps Sony throws their way.

 

[Derrick01]

Yes, it does. By comparing first-party and third-party releases you are comparing apples and oranges. First-party games by console makers get an absolutely massive marketing push by the companies making them because they are not just supposed to sell lots of units, they are also supposed to move consoles that bring in third-party revenue. Sony is using Final Fantasy to plug holes in their own exclusive release schedule and they throw a bone to Square Enix every now and then marketing-wise but they will never, ever give a third-party game even close to the same marketing push as a first party one.

Square's leadership is as dumb as bricks because they have stunted the growth of one of gaming's most historic franchises in exchange for whatever measly scraps Sony throws their way.

Eh 16 has gotten more media than gow ragnarok did already. I remember like a month and a half before that came out we still hadn't seen any gameplay of it and people were wondering what's going on. Besides sony helped market stuff like FF7R just fine and I'm sure the same will be said with 16 when the game launches like in the form of bus/train ads and commercials and all that. They've treated these FFs more or less the same as 1st party games. The issue at least with 16 is it's just not a compelling product and I don't think any amount of marketing or platforms can change that. You can't force a product people have decided is mid on to them.

 

[Alexandros]

Eh 16 has gotten more media than gow ragnarok did already. I remember like a month and a half before that came out we still hadn't seen any gameplay of it and people were wondering what's going on. Besides sony helped market stuff like FF7R just fine and I'm sure the same will be said with 16 when the game launches like in the form of bus/train ads and commercials and all that. They've treated these FFs more or less the same as 1st party games. The issue at least with 16 is it's just not a compelling product and I don't think any amount of marketing or platforms can change that. You can't force a product people have decided is mid on to them.

I don't agree that they are treating it like a first-party game, the type of marketing that first-party titles get is on a whole different level. Anyway, as for the game itself, I honestly don't know if it is mid or not as I (and I am guessing a whole lot of other people) can't be bothered to pay attention to a game that Square may decide to delay on my platform for 1-2 or more years on a whim.

 

[Kyougar]

I don't think going back to turn based or pseudo turn based would do anything but lower its sales potential even more. The gaming world was a lot different back in the FF7-10 days and what those games were doing were industry leading in terms of graphics, scale and quality. Sony also helped market them on a level that no game had ever seen before (at least with FF7) which today would be comparable to marketing FF like a COD game.

It's probably safer to admit that the world has kinda moved on from jrpgs being the hottest thing around and it's probably not something that they can ever recapture. Honestly even back in the golden age it's not like any other jrpg was selling millions besides FF (except pokemon which is practically its own genre at this point). Even today when you see other jrpg franchises "growing to all time highs"...they're reaching numbers FF hit decades ago, sometimes even before the ps1 era. Even persona 5 which is the biggest persona by far (and ironically sold the vast majority of its numbers on 1 platform) still hasn't reached what FFXV did. I just think there's a ceiling to jrpg numbers and I'm not sure how to break through it. Like they seem to want FF to become a 20m+ game like witcher 3 but what made that game sell so well? Writing? Was it just released at the perfect time?



This was just another example of yoshi p talking out of his ass. FF hasn't had anything remotely turn based since 13 which I know was only a couple of games ago but it was also 14 years ago too. The series had already long left that system in the past it's not like 16's team made some pioneering choice here.

That the franchise would sell even less with a turn-based system is kind of a devils proof.
What is a fact, is that FF JRPG's are selling less and less and switching to an action based combat system for the "wider audience" hasn't resulted in any rekindling of the mega-franchise it once was.
If that combat is so great and a millionseller, they would have changed FF14 into it.

 

[fantomena]

Humble Choice June 2023 leak - we know all games included!

The complete line-up of the upcoming pack has been leaked! See inside for details.

gg.deals

Humble Choice June 2023 leak

Curse of the Dead Gods
Ghostwire Tokyo
GRIME
Honey, I Joined a Cult
Remnant: From the Ashes – Complete Edition
Serial Cleaners
Sunday Gold
Turbo Golf Racing

Damn, that's a good bundle. Will use that promo I got in the mail.

 

[yuraya]

Its still insane to me in this day n age a big 3rd party dev with a popular brand like Final Fantasy would release the next installment exclusively to one platform. The only winner in all of this is Sony. They get a big PR win about an exclusive RPG on PS5 only for sometime. And I get it...they compete with Xbox to make sure they get stuff like this but this is no reason to not launch on PC as well. Sony are vultures for this shit and they basically fleeced Square as I doubt they pay that much $$$ for this. Probably just cover a bit of dev cost + some marketing. Its nothing to sneeze at but still PS5 isn't a big household device just yet so this is a stupid gamble by Square. You never know how big a game could become and how fast shit can sell. But no matter how good FF16 is it will be constrained by PS5 38 million install base. And out of those 38 million people only like 10-20% are out there buying day 1 70$ titles. That is just how it is so no shit the preorders aren't gonna be impressive. The console is also not selling all that well in Japan so even diehards who love FF in Japan will have trouble easily accessing this game.

I bought FF7R at launch when it came to Steam. Same with XV and XIII. There is millions of FF fans across Xbox, PC and Nintendo. Its absolute shit decision from Square not to launch the next big installment day 1 on as many platforms as possible so all the fans can have a good time. Imagine if this was Elden Ring. There is no chance it would sell the 20 million it sold if it was PS5 only.

If the preorder #s aren't good they better hope it reviews really well. Like high 80s low 90s area otherwise a lot of people will just overlook a medieval fantasy action rpg until it gets a discount. It will most likely be one of those titles with long selling legs but even stuff like that isn't a guarantee. They are gonna need to support it really well with DLC and good PC port. And they aren't getting any bonus points for making PC gamers wait like this. FF7R reviewed well on PC but its still only 15k user reviews. That is gonna be a big drop off from FFXV which didn't even do impressive numbers but people also waited 18 months for that shit so wtvr. They just continue hurting their brand with these shitty exclusivity deals. And the awful marketing for some of these games doesn't help either.

 

[ezodagrom]

My two cents about FF16, I feel that the main trailers have been so focused on how serious and moody the story is, that they've forgotten to sell us on the cast of characters. It feels like if you've watched 1 of the trailers, you've watched them all.
I guess either the cast of characters is just not that interesting, or, it could be another Marvel's Guardians of the Galaxy situation?

Ever since Heavensward, the main cast of characters in FF14 and many notable side characters have been mostly charismatic or at least interesting each in their own way, I can't help but wonder about FF16.

 

[Hektor]

Exclusivity has nothing to do with FFXVI selling preorders under expectation because the expectations, if in any way reasonable, are of course adjusted to the fact that it's exclusive.

The game just looks very uninteresting to a lot of Final Fantasy Fans because nothing of what one would like about Final Fantasy game iss till left in this games personality.

They just made a Devil May Cry game, some of the leaddevs even are Devil May Cry devs, and those games have actually quite a limited appeal compared to more normal action JRPG's (which FFXVI isn't, they made that quite clear)

Every time i've heard more of the game, i got less excited for it, and i've played through all mainline titles (except the mmo's) multiple times, aswell as a large amount of spinoffs. FF1-12 i've all played between 3-10 times each.

On top of that, the marketing is genuinly horrible.
Every time they talk about the game, they just talk about what it won't have, like no optional dungeons, no side activities, no minigames, no party, no equipment, no black people

And the trailers were all horrible, while the first one was a really well made teaser which was fine to have little gameplay at first, every trailer since has just been a remix of the first one, just showing random dialogue and cutscenes and barely any gameplay, they only really started showing what the game actually plays like barely a month ago.

 

[ZKenir]

No party? Wtf

 

[C-Dub]

No party? Wtf

Occasionally other characters join that motherfucker, Clive. But yeah, it’s mostly a solo character game. Even more so than FFXV where you can only play Noctis, but have your boy band entourage with you.

 

[ZKenir]

I haven't really paid attention to 16 because I know it'll be a while before i can play it when it's out, but that kinda kills a lot of the interest for me... I want my party in JRPGs

 

[yuraya]

No party? Wtf

It will have some AI buddy system but nothing like the traditional FF games with depth/mechanics etc.

People shit on XIII a lot to this day but that game may just be the last FF game we get that actually has the old school FF feel with difficult boss fights + engaging party based combat systems. Everything since XIII hasn't really felt like FF. Its fine they are always doing something different but they shouldn't be shocked if fan and sales response isn't what they thought it would be.

I still haven't played the Octopath traveler games but in my mind I kinda just look at them as FF16 and FF17. That is what they should have called them and this new one FF18 I guess. Would have probably been best approach to satisfy as much people out there as possible. Turn based fans will always love turn based games so that is something Square needs to understand for future entries. And before people say Turn based games don't sell you can just look at the Divinity OS games and Baldurs Gate III. If you make a good game with a good story that has turn based combat it will absolutely sell a lot. Especially with brand name like Final Fantasy.

I really should play the Octopath games. They are probably amazing on Deck. Maybe they have a good deal on the first during summer sale and I jump aboard.

 

[ZKenir]

I don't mind if my party is handled by ai/bots/whatever I just want some party members that come along for the ride and aren't just in cutscenes a la yakuza (before 7).
I sort of dislike "solo" experiences unless I'm specifically in the mood for them.

 

[curi0usBystander]

Exclusivity has nothing to do with FFXVI selling preorders under expectation because the expectations, if in any way reasonable, are of course adjusted to the fact that it's exclusive.

Correct

I bring this up because I had heard recently that Square Enix is panicking slightly over Final Fantasy XVI preorder numbers, which are tracking behind FFXV even accounting for the lesser number of launching platforms

 

[Derrick01]

No party? Wtf

That was probably the 2nd thing that upset me after the DMC combat reveal. Honestly it feels like this team got the short end of the stick by picking the "wrong" ex capcom employee. They picked a guy who is just doing what he knows and repeating DMC, there's nothing really unique or ambitious here. He's just turning an IP into something else.

Meanwhile the FF7 team got one of monster hunter world's leads as their combat director and he invented a completely unique and fantastic battle system that both respects the previous game's roots while modernizing it and it still allows for tactics and, most importantly, using multiple party members. He didn't just come over and make another monster hunter.

 

[ezodagrom]

I don't mind if my party is handled by ai/bots/whatever I just want some party members that come along for the ride and aren't just in cutscenes a la yakuza (before 7).
I sort of dislike "solo" experiences unless I'm specifically in the mood for them.

 

[Alexandros]

Exclusivity has nothing to do with FFXVI selling preorders under expectation because the expectations, if in any way reasonable, are of course adjusted to the fact that it's exclusive.

I disagree. Exclusivity has everything to do with it because if you have spent decades catering almost exclusively to the same audience without any attempt to grow it, then a potentially divisive or underwhelming game is enough to send you into panic mode since you have no safety net.

 

[ZKenir]

yakuza 5 and i'm on chapter 4, Shinada seems like a fun character.
Chapter 3 was also fun, I wasn't too hot how it started with all the forced dancing lessons stuff but Akiyama is a lot of fun.

I think I just hate chapters where Taiga is the protagonist.

 

[STHX]

It's probably safer to admit that the world has kinda moved on from jrpgs being the hottest thing around and it's probably not something that they can ever recapture

I understand what you're saying but I think the issue is bigger than this
First, turn based rpgs, even very simple ones, have no issue raking millions on mobile. Yeah yeah I'm basically killing my own argument by talking about mobile but despite this I don't think gaming is a bubble that should be limited to only certain platforms or periods. If Honkai Star Rail is making 100 milions in a month it's not just because Mihoyo is a big name it's also because people that play and pay for it find the turn based rpg gameplay interesting enough to spend money on it. In the end a game is a game: if a turn based game can be succesful on a platform why would they always fail on another?
Second, and this is the actual important part, how many truly exceptional "jrpgs" even released in the last years if not the last generations? Again I hate that I'm even talking about reception and awards but if we want to "target" the average gamer then you can't really ignore this issue: How many FF games actually won GOTYs? How many JRPGs were actually "flawless masterpieces" in the last 10 years? FFXIII and XV had tons of issue, Arise was one of the best selling Tales but would you call it a 10/10 game? DQXI is a very lovely title but is it really "amazing"? Hell even Persona 5: great style, nice music, but deep inside is it really so incredible? And obviously I'm only focusing on bigger budget releases but it's not like smaller titles, even ignoring the smaller budget, are faring much better (from Star Ocean, to Bravely and Octopath. From Trails, to Gust, or even to Neptunia, none of them are)

Now, about this last part, I actually have no issue enjoying these "JRPGs", just as I have no issue loving many other genres (hell one of my favorites is SRW which is lucky if it will ever review as well as SO6). Not every game needs to be GOTY, and in fact lots of games sold well enough without needing massive critical praise or without selling 20+ million copies. Which is why I'm going to go back to the second point and talk about "GOTY contenders". Games like TotK are GOTY contenders: lots of money was spent on it, both in development and in marketing. Same for Ragnarok, or HFW, or ER and many others. The problem is that only because you spend mony doesn't mean you will create a GOTY contender. Here's why we're now talking about the third part: SE thinks that by simply throwing money at problems they can sell well, except they end up spending money on the wrong things. Look at FFXV: why oh god why did it have a movie, an animated series, a tie-in mobile game, novels (multiple novels!)? But then you actually check and the game is only in 11 languages (of which only 5 have dubs)? Do you know how many languages supports HZD? 20 and 11 of them also have full dubs. Now this may sound like bullshit but listen to me: maybe, just maybe, mister "John Gamer" looks at certain things when deciding which games to buy? Language for example is the very first "accessibility issue" you can tackle. Some companies even realized this and prefer translating the in-game text in more languages than to add a single english dub. Hell I can count the amount of games I pay full price which are not in italian on my fingers (and the answer is one SRW30 but in that case I'm not so crazy to actually pretend to play it in italian considering it's a miracle it's even in the west). Games like Elden Ring, GTA, Super Mario and Pokemon are exceptions in the sense they can actually not have full dubs in every language they support and still sell 10/20 millions (or more speaking of GTA). Zelda wasn't that lucky, and guess what was the biggest change BotW brought to the series? Dubs.
Think I'm taking crazy pills?
Witcher 3 supports 18 languages and 9 dubs
Sonic Frontiers supports 12 languages and 6 dubs (and has supported them since Sonic Generations at least and yes I specifically picked a game that did not sell 10 millions and will never be a GOTY contender to prove the point that both text and voice translations are important regardless of the game scope)
ReMake 4 supports 13 languages and 9 dubs (and has supported them since RE6 at least)
Hell just take a random Sony, Microsoft, EA, Ubisoft or even Nintendo game. Even the Advance Wars remake is dubbed in 5 languages and that game will be lucky to sell a million worldwide!
I'm sure there can be many examples where I will be proven wrong (like Minecraft, or Animal Crossing) but the truth is if you want to actually reach the extended audiences then languages are the first thing to do. MHW supports more dubs than Rise and in the end it sold more. Coincidence? Maybe but I don't think so. Even Atlus realized this since one of the bigger points they made with the new P4 and 3 rereleases was the additions of more translations (and they also did it for the newly released EO HD trilogy). Even Konami knows it since Suikoden I&II supports 8 languages, most of those new compared to the original releases.
And now let's go back to SE and why they suck at spending money: Forspoken costs 80 fucking euros and only supports 4 dubs? I mean voice acting is the last of the game issues but if SE doesn't trust the game enough to spend more money on voices why would I trust in them spending more money to make the game better? This is the issue with JRPGs, especially SE ones: despite somehow spending millions on them the end product still fells very cheap: empty areas, bad story, subpar voice acting, little to no side content. But... but look at this amazing 1:25 minutes FMV that takes 20 GB in space, isn't it amazing! Look at the lifelike expressions! Who cares if the actual in-game models look like Oblivion potatoes. Gamers might me stupid but even them can smell the lack of substance. At this point I may as well spend half (or 1/4) of the money and just play a Tales, or a Trails. Those games have obvious budget issue but at least they don't try to pretend to be the best thing ever made


Maybe one day a better company will actually take the challenge and release a true JRPG Goty, but until that happens a blanket statement that turn based games can't sell will always ring hollow, just as a blanket statement saying SRW will never release in the west because of licence issues and low sales potential was proven wrong

 

[lashman]

 

[Durante]

[edit: this is in reply to STHX]

While I think there's some truth to your arguments I think you focuse too much on production values.

Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part, but I really do believe that a large factor in the relative lack of success of "AAA" JRPGs is how stagnant they have become. What really drove this impression home for me is recently playing Valkyrie Profile: Silmeria. This was absolutely a (Square!) AAA effort at its time, and the amount of interesting new systems and the level of gameplay innovation it contains is absolutely incomparable to their modern efforts. They resort to basically turning the game into another genre in order to provide a novel and fresh experience -- they did it by creating an entirely new battle system that still honored and even greatly expanded upon JRPG staples. Another thing I noticed while playing it is that the game actually expects its players to think, and rewards them for it. Some of the optional dungeon puzzles are actually tricky, and there's no handholding at all for them.

Now, that wasn't really a tremendously successful game financially IIRC, so I might just be way off. But what I now absolutely have full renewed conviction about is that anyone who doesn't think that AAA JRPG gameplay peaked on PS2 doesn't know what they are talking about

 

[NarohDethan]

If AAA games are becoming these massive projects with pipelines spanning an entire generation of hardware, then you would be a fool to bet the house on one platform only. PS5 might be leading in sales but that doesn't necessarily translate into big sales.

Pulling numbers out of my ass, let's say that SF6 split is 60:35:5 for PS5/PC/Xbox for, let's say, 3 million copies. That's 1.8m/1.05m/.15m copies. Maybe it's just me but 1.2 million copies is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[lashman]

 

[Line]

[edit: this is in reply to STHX]

While I think there's some truth to your arguments I think you focuse too much on production values.

Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part, but I really do believe that a large factor in the relative lack of success of "AAA" JRPGs is how stagnant they have become. What really drove this impression home for me is recently playing Valkyrie Profile: Silmeria. This was absolutely a (Square!) AAA effort at its time, and the amount of interesting new systems and the level of gameplay innovation it contains is absolutely incomparable to their modern efforts. They resort to basically turning the game into another genre in order to provide a novel and fresh experience -- they did it by creating an entirely new battle system that still honored and even greatly expanded upon JRPG staples. Another thing I noticed while playing it is that the game actually expects its players to think, and rewards them for it. Some of the optional dungeon puzzles are actually tricky, and there's no handholding at all for them.

Now, that wasn't really a tremendously successful game financially IIRC, so I might just be way off. But what I now absolutely have full renewed conviction about is that anyone who doesn't think that AAA JRPG gameplay peaked on PS2 doesn't know what they are talking about

Always comes down to systems being boring to me in modern JRPGs.
I always end complaining about level design being straight up dead in all of them, it's just corridors, or large areas that act like corridors. FF7R might be one of the worst representative of that aspect (and Tales of Arise the second).
What's fun about RPGs in general is the exploration and the progression.

If you delete the world (and FF10 did it first - I very much blame the PS2 for the death of level design, both from popular games like FF10 but also Atlus games), then you bet you need to invest a lot more in story and progression, and not just add +1damage yo your weapon while enemies get +10hp while listening to the latest narrative sequence... that you're not playing because the important things happen out of camera (hi FF12, I hate you even more than FF13).

And really, modern games certainly don't do any of those things particularly well. You just go through the motions in long, mostly empty, boring dungeons with some writing that can be hit or miss (hi Persona 5 sabotaging your own themes).
I have no doubts that's why the open world became popular as some sort of replacement, not that it was needed, because the older, tighter and more puzzle focus still exists after all.
But the actual adventure part that involves new locales, items, combat and story situations is not here anymore, especially not with a Ubisoft-like approach to world design.

As far as FF16 is concerned, there's also the fact that it feels like a 2009 game (and not only the little settlements and the NPCs that look like Dragon's Dogma 1) because it feels really dark and gritty and avenging kingdoms and shit.
And that's where I don't believe for a second that the game is made to target a new, younger audience, because the youth sure as fuck isn't looking for Game of Thrones, they want colors and wackiness, something that a certain artist knows how to represent quite well, and would translate much better today.

Imagine having colors, stylized visuals and a totally unique look!
Or not, and just make more asset flip-looking RPGs that costs $350M again and again.

 

[STHX]

[edit: this is in reply to STHX]
Now, that wasn't really a tremendously successful game financially IIRC, so I might just be way off. But what I now absolutely have full renewed conviction about is that anyone who doesn't think that AAA JRPG gameplay peaked on PS2 doesn't know what they are talking about

What you say not only is true, but you can even go before the ps2 and find similar examples (including very succesful example) although obviously the maximum sales potential was different 20/30 years ago
Just look at FFVII. That game was mindblowing. The prerendered graphics were like nothing before, limit breaks brought a never seen cinematic feel into standard turn based combat, the amount and quality of songs was revolutionary, and let's not forget how the game randomly changed gameplay for a single minigame. How many games even today have a "CPR minigame" in them? Even when you look at its two sequels while IX is fondly remembered for many reason, VIII is the one that stuck much more even today (despite the bullshit Junction) specifically because it iteraded on those addition VII did before. But that wasn't the only one. Even if less successful look at Xenogears and how unique it was. Or Legend of Dragoon. Or Koudelka. Now I do admit not all of those games were good but at least they tried something new instead of endlessly iterating
But why stopping at the PS1? Chrono Trigger on SNES is absolutely mindblowing too. The very beginning of the game is filled with non combat parts desptie the combat parts looking as close as to an "anime" as it could at the time. CT ended up being successful (again in respect to how much games sold at the time). But that game wasn't the only "special" experience. honestly I like Terranigma more, and it's predecessors are no sluches either in originality, and of course let's not forget about the original Live-a-Live. Unfortunately at one point the word innovation started to change meaning, or mayb budget inflated so much you can no longer justify being original

 

[Hektor]

Look at my games ye mighty, and despair

 

[Paul]

I am looking at some Final Fantasy 16 gameplay and it seems to me like japanese take on Witcher 3?
Very reminiscent of it, from setting, to UI interface, to gameplay.

But somehow it looks worse than 8 years old Witcher 3, for example in dialogue animations.

I really wonder what the quality of its design and writing will be like. I don't expect Witcher-level quality, but if it is at least good I will probably want to play it when it hits PC. I love these types of RPGs.

FF15 is to this day the only JRPG I played (and finished). It was pretty good but it had the absolute worst dogshit sidequest design I have ever seen.

 

[Censored]

Have you tried turning it off and on again... ^^
Some PS users stated that the licensing issues were solved when they "bought" something free on PS store while Diablo was open.

Yes but still no luck for me. I hope it gets solved on official release date.
I’m curious if solution will be just let people download it on PC or buy it again on PC -yeah I’m not naive I know I will have to buy it again-
PS5 version is great and controller implementation is well done but free online on PC is the point.

 

[lashman]

 

[ezodagrom]

As far as FF16 is concerned, there's also the fact that it feels like a 2009 game (and not only the little settlements and the NPCs that look like Dragon's Dogma 1) because it feels really dark and gritty and avenging kingdoms and shit.
And that's where I don't believe for a second that the game is made to target a new, younger audience, because the youth sure as fuck isn't looking for Game of Thrones, they want colors and wackiness, something that a certain artist knows how to represent quite well, and would translate much better today.

Imagine having colors, stylized visuals and a totally unique look!

While FF16 is seemingly lacking in stylized/colorful visuals, FF14 has been having quite a few of unique locations especially in the latest 2 expansions. :x

 

[BaoIzumi]

 

[yuraya]

As far as FF16 is concerned, there's also the fact that it feels like a 2009 game (and not only the little settlements and the NPCs that look like Dragon's Dogma 1) because it feels really dark and gritty and avenging kingdoms and shit.
And that's where I don't believe for a second that the game is made to target a new, younger audience, because the youth sure as fuck isn't looking for Game of Thrones, they want colors and wackiness, something that a certain artist knows how to represent quite well, and would translate much better today.

With how bad the marketing for FFXVI has been I have to hand it to Capcom. That quick and simplistic trailer for Dragon's Dogma 2 did a far better job selling me on the game than all the trailers for FFXVI. I think its partly because you know what you are getting. Its basically the first game with better graphics and RE Engine.

It wouldn't surprise me if DD2 has better reviews and sells better than XVI over time. Its a lot easier to sell people on an open world pawn party rpg with fun climbing monster mechanics and crazy spells. Both games might release around the same time (early 2024) on PC so its gonna be interesting to see the Steam sales. Capcom seems to be overachieving with every one of their big releases as of late. And the first DD game has a ton of owners/reviews on Steam. Wouldn't surprise me one bit to see 100k+ concurrent players at launch for DD2.

 

[Derrick01]

I understand what you're saying but I think the issue is bigger than this
First, turn based rpgs, even very simple ones, have no issue raking millions on mobile. Yeah yeah I'm basically killing my own argument by talking about mobile but despite this I don't think gaming is a bubble that should be limited to only certain platforms or periods. If Honkai Star Rail is making 100 milions in a month it's not just because Mihoyo is a big name it's also because people that play and pay for it find the turn based rpg gameplay interesting enough to spend money on it. In the end a game is a game: if a turn based game can be succesful on a platform why would they always fail on another?
Second, and this is the actual important part, how many truly exceptional "jrpgs" even released in the last years if not the last generations? Again I hate that I'm even talking about reception and awards but if we want to "target" the average gamer then you can't really ignore this issue: How many FF games actually won GOTYs? How many JRPGs were actually "flawless masterpieces" in the last 10 years? FFXIII and XV had tons of issue, Arise was one of the best selling Tales but would you call it a 10/10 game? DQXI is a very lovely title but is it really "amazing"? Hell even Persona 5: great style, nice music, but deep inside is it really so incredible? And obviously I'm only focusing on bigger budget releases but it's not like smaller titles, even ignoring the smaller budget, are faring much better (from Star Ocean, to Bravely and Octopath. From Trails, to Gust, or even to Neptunia, none of them are)

Now, about this last part, I actually have no issue enjoying these "JRPGs", just as I have no issue loving many other genres (hell one of my favorites is SRW which is lucky if it will ever review as well as SO6). Not every game needs to be GOTY, and in fact lots of games sold well enough without needing massive critical praise or without selling 20+ million copies. Which is why I'm going to go back to the second point and talk about "GOTY contenders". Games like TotK are GOTY contenders: lots of money was spent on it, both in development and in marketing. Same for Ragnarok, or HFW, or ER and many others. The problem is that only because you spend mony doesn't mean you will create a GOTY contender. Here's why we're now talking about the third part: SE thinks that by simply throwing money at problems they can sell well, except they end up spending money on the wrong things. Look at FFXV: why oh god why did it have a movie, an animated series, a tie-in mobile game, novels (multiple novels!)? But then you actually check and the game is only in 11 languages (of which only 5 have dubs)? Do you know how many languages supports HZD? 20 and 11 of them also have full dubs. Now this may sound like bullshit but listen to me: maybe, just maybe, mister "John Gamer" looks at certain things when deciding which games to buy? Language for example is the very first "accessibility issue" you can tackle. Some companies even realized this and prefer translating the in-game text in more languages than to add a single english dub. Hell I can count the amount of games I pay full price which are not in italian on my fingers (and the answer is one SRW30 but in that case I'm not so crazy to actually pretend to play it in italian considering it's a miracle it's even in the west). Games like Elden Ring, GTA, Super Mario and Pokemon are exceptions in the sense they can actually not have full dubs in every language they support and still sell 10/20 millions (or more speaking of GTA). Zelda wasn't that lucky, and guess what was the biggest change BotW brought to the series? Dubs.
Think I'm taking crazy pills?
Witcher 3 supports 18 languages and 9 dubs
Sonic Frontiers supports 12 languages and 6 dubs (and has supported them since Sonic Generations at least and yes I specifically picked a game that did not sell 10 millions and will never be a GOTY contender to prove the point that both text and voice translations are important regardless of the game scope)
ReMake 4 supports 13 languages and 9 dubs (and has supported them since RE6 at least)
Hell just take a random Sony, Microsoft, EA, Ubisoft or even Nintendo game. Even the Advance Wars remake is dubbed in 5 languages and that game will be lucky to sell a million worldwide!
I'm sure there can be many examples where I will be proven wrong (like Minecraft, or Animal Crossing) but the truth is if you want to actually reach the extended audiences then languages are the first thing to do. MHW supports more dubs than Rise and in the end it sold more. Coincidence? Maybe but I don't think so. Even Atlus realized this since one of the bigger points they made with the new P4 and 3 rereleases was the additions of more translations (and they also did it for the newly released EO HD trilogy). Even Konami knows it since Suikoden I&II supports 8 languages, most of those new compared to the original releases.
And now let's go back to SE and why they suck at spending money: Forspoken costs 80 fucking euros and only supports 4 dubs? I mean voice acting is the last of the game issues but if SE doesn't trust the game enough to spend more money on voices why would I trust in them spending more money to make the game better? This is the issue with JRPGs, especially SE ones: despite somehow spending millions on them the end product still fells very cheap: empty areas, bad story, subpar voice acting, little to no side content. But... but look at this amazing 1:25 minutes FMV that takes 20 GB in space, isn't it amazing! Look at the lifelike expressions! Who cares if the actual in-game models look like Oblivion potatoes. Gamers might me stupid but even them can smell the lack of substance. At this point I may as well spend half (or 1/4) of the money and just play a Tales, or a Trails. Those games have obvious budget issue but at least they don't try to pretend to be the best thing ever made


Maybe one day a better company will actually take the challenge and release a true JRPG Goty, but until that happens a blanket statement that turn based games can't sell will always ring hollow, just as a blanket statement saying SRW will never release in the west because of licence issues and low sales potential was proven wrong

For the star rail bit it's definitely only popular because it's another mihoyo f2p gacha game not because of the combat. With their formula and waifu creating abilities I'm convinced they could turn a racing game into a gacha juggernaut if they wanted to. But it also remains to be seen how long that game holds up. It just came out so naturally it's raking in the money but it has a fraction of the depth and content genshin had at launch so we'll see if people stick around with it for months or years.

As for the jrpg quality bit it's hard to get into that without derailing everything with personal opinions. I think if you want to look at jrpgs that had huge critical reception in recent years the most obvious ones would be persona 5, ff7r and xenoblade 3. The latter 2 were nominated for goty at TGA and ff7 won 37 gotys in total finishing #5 that year (the other 2 also finished top 5 in their respective years but with much fewer awards due to elden ring and botw sucking up all the oxygen in those years). But it's also true that despite that critical reception there seems to be a pretty hard ceiling in place for jrpgs no matter how good they are and it seems to top out at 7-10m. This is the toughest hurdle for these games to get over IMO because it's not easy to figure out exactly why these games don't click with a wider audience, no matter what changes they make to accomodate people.

I can't speak on the language stuff that's way outside of my knowledge base. I have no idea how it affects sales one way or the other.

 

[Hektor]

Street Fighter VI is really fucking fun man. Exhausting, but fun.
I bought the classic cammy alt.

 

[Amzin]

That's Boltgun finished. It starts off strong but it has really inconsistent level design, combined with wonky combat balance after the first few levels. I think it lands solidly in the 6.5 or 7 out of 10 for me. I finished it, but I wasn't excited about playing it after the first 2-3 hours, just kinda wanted to see what else it had to offer. I don't know that I would recommend against it, I just don't think it's something I'd recommend for sure either.

It's a shame it starts off so strong but kinda just turns into a cover shooter version of Doom Eternal where you're constantly cycling weapons depending what enemy is closest and what ammo you run out of, except you don't really have abilities or anything to use on top of it. At least the ammo/health is just on the level, everywhere, instead of forcing executions every 2 seconds. Also no weak spots you have to use.

 

[ZKenir]

 

[fantomena]

How do I use the "lock in 3 months of humble choice for 7 euros" promo?

 

[Arc]

 

[yuraya]

Atlus gonna do the Xbox show? P3R with Gamepass would be pretty good. That is probably the only way I mess with it since I beat P3P not that long ago.

But we still need one more SEGA surprise at the PCGamer show. Give us SMTV you cowards.

Also P5T has to be a puzzle game. Maybe Tetris? lol I really don't know what more they can make to milk P5.

 

[dummmyy]

Okay I'll have to mod my 8bitdo arcade stick, cant connect shit on SF6 due to the square gate it has.

yeah i'm sure that's why...hehehe

 

[NarohDethan]

yeah i'm sure that's why...hehehe

I mean yeah I suck shit at fighting games as well

 

[dummmyy]

Hey, am I imagining there having been a Theaterhythm demo on steam, and if so, is that nooootttt gonna happen anymore?

 

[Kyougar]

With how bad the marketing for FFXVI has been I have to hand it to Capcom. That quick and simplistic trailer for Dragon's Dogma 2 did a far better job selling me on the game than all the trailers for FFXVI. I think its partly because you know what you are getting. Its basically the first game with better graphics and RE Engine.

That there is one of the reasons! Final Fantasy fans don't know what they are getting. If they had iterated and modernized turn-based combat over the last games, the fans would at least know that the combat would be fun.
But some crazy people with an action combat fetish kidnapped Final Fantasy instead of making their own game.

Hey square a unique thought: if turn-based combat is "only" a 7-10 million seller
and action combat has more "potential", just make 2 series! you would have double the sales at least!

(I think that was originally the plan until the incompetence of Square was so visible. FF 15 was branded as a "versus" game first and Square probably wanted to have 2 mainline FF games, one that is continuing the turn based mainline game and one with action combat with Versus branding, but they couldn't get Versus out in a timely manner, couldn't start FF15 because of that and because of sunk cost fallacy, they branded FF13-versus FF15)

 

[Mor]

Hey, am I imagining there having been a Theaterhythm demo on steam, and if so, is that nooootttt gonna happen anymore?

Game has never been confirmed for Steam in general so yeah, there is no demo nor it's going to happen. Maybe if they announce it for Steam coming next year but outlooks not so good.

 

[thekeats1999]

So, I am interested in FFXVI. But not enough to buy a PS5 at launch. If the gameplay was more “traditional” then I would be buying a ps5 now.

Yoshida has been a steady hand for 14 and a voice of sanity in SE (somebody needs to tell him to STFU over race in his fantasy games though and if you have dragons and moogles then a PoC is not going to break my immersion). And the writer off Heavensward being onboard also has me interested.

however action combat and a single character controlled focus is not what I want.

I have the same problem with FFVII Remake. 2 attempts and I still couldn’t get interested. Just give me a proper remake of VII.

 

[ezodagrom]

I have the same problem with FFVII Remake. 2 attempts and I still couldn’t get interested. Just give me a proper remake of VII.

FF7 Ever Crisis is something that I would be really interested in if it wasn't a mobile only f2p game with microtransactions...

 

[NarohDethan]

I will get FF XVI but only if I can get a physical copy at retail
BTW I ultimately broke down and got that Diablo 4 copy for Xbox, so if anyone wants to play I’m up. Just expect me to be a complete newbie to the genre.

 

[fantomena]

I will get FF XVI but only if I can get a physical copy at retail
BTW I ultimately broke down and got that Diablo 4 copy for Xbox, so if anyone wants to play I’m up. Just expect me to be a complete newbie to the genre.

Which Diablo 4 version? Standard, deluxe, ultimate.

 

[「Echo」]

I'll get FF XVI because I'm a huge Square-Enix fanboy, and despite everything I actually found things to like in the XIII trilogy, and in FFXV. I've never been as under-hyped for an FF as I am XVI, and that's why I don't mind to wait until it's on PC but... yeah I dunno what goes through SE's heads these days.

The weirdest part of it all to me is that somehow Yoshi-p is the one in charge of it and he's failing so hard... FFXIV is amazing in just about every regard, and they know exactly what keeps us ol' FF fans chomping at the bit for more. They're great at mingling in the older series via references/easter eggs or even straight up basing content off older games. (Like the Crystal Tower raid series = FF3, and Endwalker's massive riffing of FF4.)

... but FFXVI seems to have none of this. The crystals are there and the summons but that's about it... FF9 was inspiried by Western Fantasy too if you listen to the dev interviews, and FF9 is beloved by all. So what has the FFXVI done so wrong... I just dunno.

 

[dex3108]

That's L.A. Noire done again. Damn i love that game even if it has flaws. It run amazing on Deck maxed out at 40FPS and 1920×1200.