News Epic Games Store
- Thread starter Blizniak
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That all boils down to corporations (and yes, I view Sweeny as a corporation) believing they have a right to your money. And if you try to exercise the one power you have as a consumer, they get really fucking pissy about it.
Honestly, the only thing Tim's social media presence achieved for me is that if there was a one in a billion chance I could grow into accepting exclusives on PC (nope, but you never know, I use Origin after all), there's absolutely no fucking chance I could decide to ignore rich corporate CEOs who troll and insult normal people on social media. Fuuuuuck them.
The same applies to those indie devs who apparently currently feel too big to fail for no particular reason like Tim and alike wouldn't throw them and all their families under a bus if needed.
The same applies to those indie devs who apparently currently feel too big to fail for no particular reason like Tim and alike wouldn't throw them and all their families under a bus if needed.
I may be wrong, but doesn't the video game industry make the money other forms of entertainment can only dream of... even movies? Isn't video games at multi-billions dollar industry? I've heard friends speaking about this. I'm not going to research, but I did a quick Google search... I know the dangers of that, but...
The Video Games' Industry is Bigger Than Hollywood
Video games have higher incomes than the music and movie industries combined. Discover the numbers and the story behind this 100 billion dollar industry.
lpesports.com
I sometimes have the feeling he believes his own bullshit about improving the PC market for everybody because Steam is evil.
When you tell a lie long enough, you start believing it.
I toyed with the aspect of trying it for Hades. But Sweeney's e-bigdick persona has shut this idea down.
LOL, that was me with Observation. I'll just wait out the 1 year exclusivity and play it when it hits Steam, though. At least the devs were honest about why they went with the moneyhat. And I respect honesty.
The funny thing is, I probably would have bought a few Epic Store exclusive games by now or would have eventually but the bad attitude, mockery and general cuntery especially from someone like Tim Sweeney has made me actively dislike him and in turn the store. Don't underestimate a human beings ability to be so fuckin irritated by someone that they want absolutely nothing to do with them. People don't like being bullshitted to or condescendingly talked down to.
i too love when the billionaire owner of a store treats me like trash on social media .... that's what makes me want to buy stuff in that store
Well I can't stand social media personally and think it's the toilet of the internet giving any prick an opinion. However the bastard even appears on Reddit like a fucking genie to talk shite
well reddit is "social media" as wellWell I can't stand social media personally and think it's the toilet of the internet giving any prick an opinion. However the bastard even appears on Reddit like a fucking genie to talk shite
well reddit is "social media" as well
ok then I'll keep it simple then and say I fucking hate Twitter (Facebook can get tee fuck as well)
fair enough, lol
I mean, I don't think SamSho should sell a million just because it would prove SNK right and EGS wrong. After all, I'm still bitter about a delayed PC release. That kinda killed some of its momentum already.
With SFV having recovered, Tekken 7 still popular, SCVI not quite a year old, and MK11 being the new hotness, SamSho has some work to do on its own.
I honestly think it's a matter of Japanese publishers/developers having more faith in their own products than a lot of these Western devs. And you gotta ask yourself, if someone is so worried about their game not selling well enough on its own merits, is it good enough for me to buy?
exactly ... if even the game's own developers (in the rare case when it was the actual dev that took the deal, not just the publisher) don't believe in it then ... ugh ...
Enter the Gungeon for Free? Don't mind if I do.
I don't know how to explain to yall how much this makes me sad.
RTS is my favorite genre.
Yeah ill be disappointed if Iron Harvest goes EGS Exclusive. Looks like a decent RTS.
Enter the Gungeon for Free? Don't mind if I do.
Their website is crashing too. Guess they can't handle a bit of traffic!
If you pre-order Iron Harvest from their webpage it still promisses a Steam/GOG key. The thing is, when the game is finally confirmed as exclusive will the pre-order from the website have the same treatment as the kickstarter backers, meaning will they also receive their steam/gog key?
The Epic Sale was proof that pubs/devs aren’t too cool with EGS; they just expected money.
Am I the only one who skipped the stuff Tim wrote? I just can't read anything that fucker writes without getting mad. And I don't think that's healthy.
I can't look at his face without wanting to the punch the screen so I can sympathize.
I don’t bother either. If I see his face I get angry.
Nope! I read the first few responses, got disgusted, then scrolled on past everything else.
But, as much as I've been voicing my opinion due to inactivity for a while, I'm not really made or upset. I agree with an old Tizoc opinion/saying... we have so much awesome stuff that gets dropped on Steam ALL THE TIME to even begin to worry about EGS. AAA are not always better. When it comes to EGS, I don't let it bother me... but don't show me a picture of the Sween... gross!
but those are the best bits
This is how I feel too., and why I'm glad Meta has it's own Epic thread so we don't shit up everything else with Tim's twitterrhea.
Nuclear hot take: Epic can take Shenmue, Yakuza is the superior series anyway.
So, I actually went back and read the Twitter thread. God, Timothy looks so damn stupid and childish... and then throws the victim card... because he chose to have discussion on the 500,000 topic. Nice. Coffee Stain, you too are now on the list. I bought Goat Simulator on almost every platform to support you. Now? I give you this on one forum: fuck you.
Agree. I want to be able to discuss Epic, Steam, and other PC-related items while not being chained to ONE f’n PC THREAD. Also, even in all our “complaining,” I’ve yet to see a meltdown here. I know where lashman stands on capitalism; however, he doesn’t gospelize it in every post, thread, or shit on anyone who disagrees. We all discuss, agree, disagree, and enjoy company. Meta Men & Queen 4 Life!
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I played it with my fiancées son, bought the game for him (Xbox one), we played a bit together, but it just didnt click.
and in the end, I just prefer playing alone by a country mile.
Coffee Stain has been incredibly condescending too. Won't buy anything from them again... but then again, I didnt like any of their games anyway.
I really dont like a lot of games, the more I think of it.
You mean when Supergiant tried to up the price on Hades to like $25 when it was discovered that Epic was paying the first $10?
Yeah, some of these indies that I used to respect...that's eroding.
I saw Queen here once....So, I actually went back and read the Twitter thread. God, Timothy looks so damn stupid and childish... and then throws the victim card... because he chose to have discussion on the 500,000 topic. Nice. Coffee Stain, you too are now on the list. I bought Goat Simulator on almost every platform to support you. Now? I give you this on one forum: fuck you.
Agree. I want to be able to discuss Epic, Steam, and other PC-related items while not being chained to ONE f’n PC THREAD. Also, even in all our “complaining,” I’ve yet to see a meltdown here. I know where lashman stands on capitalism; however, he doesn’t gospelize it in every post, thread, or shit on anyone who disagrees. We all discuss, agree, disagree, and enjoy company. Meta Men & Queen 4 Life!
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I'm not sure I'll go that far.
As I mentioned before, I'm a huge Shenmue fan (I even have a collection of demos, promo items, and whatnot, related to the series), and I dropped a few hundred $ on that Kickstarter campaign, but being totally honest, and this has nothing to do with this recent development with the EGS, and their treatment of backers: I have many, many, doubts, that Shenmue III will even remotely compare to the previous two games.
It's not just the lack of budget compared to the previous titles, many things changed. Starting with the personnel. Yu Suzuki is there, sure, but many of the talented SEGA personnel, responsible for lots of timeless classics, worked on the original games, and are obviously nowhere to be found. I don't think they even got Yuzo Koshiro, now a freelancer, and an important part of the sound of the series, on board.
The Shenmue series were the result of SEGA dropping it's top assets, and a big budget, on a series that was supposed to sell a console. It's pretty much the result of a SEGA, at its best, that no longer exists.
Shenmue III doesn't have any of that. The latest gameplay video showed some familiar gameplay, and probably the first positive sign I saw of the game in motion, but it also showed that many things were off.
The Yakuza series is the product of a team that represents one of the last remnants of classic SEGA, and it shows.
I would have loved to see the original staff that worked on Shenmue make a sequel.
But now, honestly, if you made me choose between a new Shenmue, or a new Yakuza, I would say I would prefer a new Yakuza.
The Yakuza series is currently a lot more SEGA, than Shenmue III appears to be. I may be totally wrong, and the game is a good surprise, but I really doubt it.
I mentioned that I responded to the devs of Falcon Age on their PC trailer, where they revealed EGS exclusivity. I wrote down a bunch of point on why the EGS gets so much criticism (they asked... so I assume they really dont know?)
Anyway, I took that text and edited it into a sort of open letter for devs taking EGS deals. I always wanted a text I can just link to instead of having to answer to the same tired arguments over and over again. And I wanted it to be up to date and as condensed as possible whilst also touching all points and possible counter-arguments. here's a first draft, what do you guys think? Have any comments, suggestions?
Anyway, I took that text and edited it into a sort of open letter for devs taking EGS deals. I always wanted a text I can just link to instead of having to answer to the same tired arguments over and over again. And I wanted it to be up to date and as condensed as possible whilst also touching all points and possible counter-arguments. here's a first draft, what do you guys think? Have any comments, suggestions?
SO YOU SIGNED AN EPIC GAMES STORE EXCLUSIVITY DEAL
If you have a game that went EGS exclusive I gotta tell you this: if you wanted the exposure from being on a store with a low number of games on sale: if you launched on Steam, GOG, Itch, Origin, MS Store, Discord etc. and the EGS at the same time, you still would've gotten the exposure you wanted on the EGS while also allowing people to choose where to buy.
Taking choice away from potential costumers is a very bad idea. And the EGS is disliked by a large number of people (yes, I know some will claim its a vocal minority, that is always the case when criticism arises, people doing bad things do not want to be criticised, especially when they know the critics are actually onto something) for very good reasons -- here are some of them:
AGGRESSIVE EXCLUSIVES
The aggressive way Epic has been securing exclusives is one big reason.
This included games that had been advertising on Steam for a while before going exclusive, and games like Metro Exodus and Anno 1800 that had already been actively sold on Steam before they got pulled.
Metro is now available on Microsofts Game Pass for PC, suggesting the exclusivity is especially targeted at Steam and by extension its users: understandably, since Steam is the biggest and by far most complete PC gaming store and client. Steam is not perfect, but it is constantly getting better. But not to dismiss the other stores... I'd prefer games to be sold everywhere. Again: choice is good.
Some people stated Half-Life 2 and other Valve titles are exclusive to Steam and that Half-Life 2's exclusivity particularly made Steam successful: Maybe, but first party games have all the tight to be exclusives... I would not fault Sony for not releasing on the Xbox either. But even then, Valve actually sold their games on UPlay before Ubisoft stopped selling third party games...
QUESTIONABLE ETHICS, A STORE WITHOUT FEATURES, ALLEGED SPYWARE: NOT A GOOD MIX
The EGS is financed heavily by Epics Fortnite money and that of Tencent (a very scary corporation indeed), making it all a big heavy buy-in into the PC market, but with a client that offers exactly zero features that people have come to expect.
Some have argued Steam launched with few features too, but that was ages ago - 2003 I think -, and EGS needs to be compared to Steam's featureset today. And it loses heavily on that front. It doesn't even have a shopping cart yet.
Not to mention the spyware allegations against the EGS. These aren't reassuring either.
KEEP THE FORTNITE TRAIN GOING, NO MATTER THE (HUMAN) COST
Speaking of Fortnite: Epic has been under scrutiny for keeping their workforce in constant crunch to keep Fortnite successful - and Tim Sweeney could only afford a cynical "yes, we work hard" as an excuse. And we're talking 80-100 hour work weeks here, without overtime pay if the rumours are true.
THE "EPIC" MEGA SALE
Epic has stated they would never host a sale, but within months, they did. Galyonkin has been on record saying sales devalue games, and Epic went on to discount everything wholesale, presumable without telling devs first: some pulled their games during the sale, some hiked the prices up. It was very confusing. Epic actually paid for the discounts, but its still did exactly what Galyonkin said: it devalued the games. You saw a game at €5 once, you probably won't pay €20 for it, you will wait for another sale.
OH, SPEAKING ABOUT GALYONKIN
Sergey Galyonkin ran the website SteamSpy for years, gathering massive amounts of data on Steam, before helping Epic setting up their store. I'll let you decide if things like that are cool with you or not.
POISONING THE CROWDFUNDED WELL
The securing of crowdfunded titles (Shenmue III, Phoenix Point) as EGS exclusives where Steam keys have been promised or greatly implied has been a sour point and will make people in the future more wary of backing other titles.
STEAMS "TAX" IS LOWER THAN YOU MIGHT THINK & EPICS CUT MIGHT NOT BE SUSTAINABLE FOREVER
Epics claim their cut is so much better but it doesn't include lots of transaction/conversion fees that Steam all swallows, and ignores the fact Steam lets devs generate keys to sell, from which Valve gets a 0% cut. If Steam were to lower their cut, they would have to eliminate a lot of this to stay sustainable. This would effectively kill third party key stores like GreenManGaming and Fanatical. Epic sells on these but gets 12% on these sales too, unlike Valve.
OBSCENELY LONG EXCLUSIVITY WINDOWS
The standard 1 year exclusive is way too long. Epic knows this, they are banking on people caving in and installing their client over that period. If the exclusivity window was shorter, like Discord has been doing (1-2 months I believe -- on and btw, Discord offers a better cut, too: 90/10, something often overlooked), less people would be bothered. It's the aggressiveness of it all, the playing dirty, that rubs people the wrong way.
NOT TECHNICALLY ILLEGAL, BUT...
Epic isn't doing anything illegal but it all seems very shady and definitely not worthy of supporting, which is why many people abstain from buying anything there -- or even making an account or installing that underwhelming client.
PUBLISHER'S COMMUNITY MANAGERS ON HIGH HORSES
I also wanted to note some devs and publishers that took EGS deals are especially sassy and thin-skinned when it comes to criticism. They are talking down on people who supported them, bought their games and now are annoyed that those same devs/publishers took choices away from them. It's incredibly petty, condescending and cynical, and in most other industries companies would quickly fire people that are talking to potential costumers like some of these community managers. It is a disgrace. The video game industry is not infallible gods that need to be worshipped. But some of them seem to believe they are always right.
SUMMARY
So, to summarize, the main points of scrutiny are long exclusives and the aggressive way of acquiring them, taking choice away, and trying to strong-arm costumers to use their vastly inferior client - and expect us to somehow feel good about it.
I know you can't go back on your deal, but maybe you'll reconsider it next time. One can hope.
The games industry learned people don't want loot boxes after a while -- maybe they will learn people don't want store exclusivity on PC either.
BUT LET'S BE REAL FOR A SECOND
I know Epic gives out massive wads of cash (not all deals are like this, but plenty seem to be). Chances are you really needed that money. I can't fault you for trying to save your company (I will however scrutinise you if you're just being greedy for the sake of being greedy). But please, be at least honest about it. I know it's hard to admit it, but all these reasons you might feel inclined to state for going exclusive won't win you any sympathy. If you are at least stating the cold, harsh truth, people might at least not hate you.
Some sources:
Why Valve actually gets less than 30 percent of Steam game sales
Commission-free Steam key sales through other stores cut into Valve’s bottom line.arstechnica.com
How Fortnite’s success led to months of intense crunch at Epic Games
Sources reveal long hours and intense pressure while working on hit gamewww.polygon.com
YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.www.youtube.com
I've mentioned this on here before, but I've found that my hard-line stance against Epic "exclusivity" has really helped my "anger" towards them. If you (a game developer/publisher) announce that you are making a deal with Epic, your game ceases to exist for me. I'll put your game on ignore if there is a Steam page, and possibly even your publisher too. I won't buy your game anywhere and I'll never play it, no matter how it is distributed at a later date (including Humble bundles, MS game pass, etc). Hell, I wouldn't have bought Bloodstained if I had noticed that 505 Games was the publisher. It hurts a bit to know I'll never play Outer Worlds, but I have a bad habit that started in the N64 era of buying games just to buy them, so I'll live. By the time I could have played Outer Worlds, 2 superior RPGs will be out, or close to release, by then anyways. So I'll just buy other shit and not play them instead.
have you sent that to any other devs/publishers? It does a pretty good job summarizing the issues, though the "not technically illegal but.." section really doesn't drive home any points, and I'd lose that. It's likely what would be pick up on and used to minimize the rest if someone disputed it.
no, not yet, its a first draft and I wanted to hear some opinions
Youre very right about this point, I will delete it.
A lot of them started from the ridiculous position that Epic was doing things to help them and not simply to broaden their bottom line.
Then of course, Epic showed they care as much about developers as they do customers, and it's all lip service to try to paint themselves as good guys. And they were a string of unforced errors too, because they've been talking out of their ass with ridiculous positions like "no sales" and "no price reductions" and they couldn't keep their word for 6 months because it's obvious their data tells them that customers actually buy more during these periods.
Of course gullible indies thinking they have a right to infinite shelf life at full price and having their games never devalue literally and perception wise acted shocked when Epic did what any other smart storefront would do and used them as commodities to sell their idea of a storefront instead of treating them as partners and respect their impossible wishes.
Of course the money is still too good to pass up, and to be fair, most developers are short term thinkers and just want the bag of money. It's the other segment that really ate up the idea that Epic wouldn't leverage their games to win a race to the bottom. This is Epic we are talking about. Do they even know what they make? This is the company that gave away their battle pass the minute Apex got a little traction. Jesus.
... and to add to that - Rob is back with another great thread about epic's "free" games
(just posting everything as quote because twitter embeds for threads are fucking annoying ... the embedded tweet is the one he's quote-tweeting and commenting on)
I mean Epic spoke against some of this stuff itself, saying Steam sales are bad and devalue (indie) games and shit. Then went on to treat them worse by just normalizing them as freebies. How do you even sell your indie game to any who got Subnautica, Rime, Slime Rancher and other such caliber games for free? Sure, it was a net benefit for those specific games as they were older and likely already sold to whoever wanted them but Epic likes claiming this is a new audience and new market that Steam didn't reach and Fortnite did, but what happens to Subnautica 2, will EGS users buy it or just wait for it to be free? Etc.
making all those games be $2-5 during the sale certainly didn't help either ... especially those that aren't even released yet
i wouldn't know ... i'm blocking ads pretty much everywhere