Community MetaSteam | March 2019 - The Core Values of One-Handed Fighting

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Hektor

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I thought getting some sleep would make me less upset about phoenix point, but turns out it did the opposite.

Between this and project phoenix, the term phoenix shall ring an alarm inside me in the foreseeable future.

At least halo on steam can ease the pain, even if they start the roll out with Reach, the most boring one of the games, first.

Eh if it's really really annoying I can change my username to just Echo like on Era. The cross/dagger can be made with Alt+0134 on a keyboard with numpad. I'm not even religious, so the crosses serve no purpose. but the Evangelion nerd in me likes religious iconography just for the show of it lol.

On the other hand, being a pain to tag can have it's upsides. :p
I wasn't aware it's supposed to reference the best anime, in that case you can keep it.


 
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lashman

lashman

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I thought getting some sleep would make me less upset about phoenix point, but turns out it did the opposite.

Between this and project phoenix, the term phoenix shall ring a alarm inside me in the foreseeable future.

At least halo on steam can ease the pain, even if they start the roll put with Reach, the most boring one of the games, first.
guess Sergey was right about steam fanboys raging ;)
 
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lashman

lashman

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To be honest, that'd be the best outcome cos I barely play western AAA games anymore (fuckyougotmine ¯\(ツ)/¯) but if Yoko Taros next game would be epic exclusive I'll personally netorare Tim Sweeney
Fine by me. This thing is already a shitstorm, pissing off as many people as possible will turn it into a shitstorm of epic proportions (pun intended).
imagine if they get Paradox as well ...
 
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tbh, only games that timed exclusivity kills are multi games, singleplay games will suffer, but we can get them year later and that's fine, not like we have nothing to play.
looking at the bright side
Yeah, but are you guys seriously going to run and buy these games 1 year later?
Personally, I take these 1 year delays in launching in other platforms as if they're saying "We're giving you the honour of allowing you to give us money 1 year later", as if they're doing me a favour, so they can bite it. :grinning-face-with-smiling-eyes:

To many other developers to support, instead of teams that pull these shitty moves.
 
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lashman

lashman

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Added a little extra to my prior post.
for everyone too lazy to click the link:

This is about as best as my lazy brain could express this.

Here's the thing that these Indie developers need to realize in regards to Steam and the PC gaming scene in general

1- If you want to sell your game to an actual audience, If GOG nor Epic are willing to sell your game, but Steam does, be a little grateful that you even got OK-ed.
Because your only other alternative is to sell the game on your own website via Humble Widget or another method.
Itch.io? Bless them, they deserve credit, but your lanky ass KNOWS the real big bucks are from Steam, and that's part of why you even approached any of these stores in the first place. Itch.io is fine to host your game, but you know where the money comes from.

2- Visibility? Your game could be shown to 10,000 users who the dumb algorithm managed to actually realize are users that have an interest in Indie games, but if only under 10% of them Wishlist your game (let alone BUY your game straight up), then that should tell you something about your game: At the least it is a curiosity, at worst it is something those remaining users won't miss out on anything by not getting your game.
You'll want to CATCH the attention of the average Steam user if your game even lucks out to show up on their feed or que; a flashy looking screenshot of an attack or even a lovely looking screenshot can raise interest in your game. Same goes for the banner. If you're lucky enough that the user watches your game's trailer, then you better make sure it shows some good gameplay, and not the usual same stuff you could find in a dozen other indie games. Maybe even an animating background for the stages could raise interest in your game.
Simply put, it's not only the DESIGN of your game, it's how YOU promote it, because it's not Valve's job to promote your game if you're not gonna do enough effort to entice the consumer to even give a 2nd glance to your game.

2b- Even if your game is basic and simple in the gameplay department, a catchy visual design can go a long way; colorful backgrounds/setting, or animations that give a more atmospheric feel can help raise interest and awareness of your game. You want the average Steam user to WANT to get your game, and if you manage to wow their eyes on first glance, who knows you may even get a day 1 sale that way.

3- Don't rely on just Steam; seek out known Youtubers or Streamers, ones with credibility and ask if they'd be willing to play and review your game. If their impression of your game is negative, or lukewarm, then take note of EVERY point they mention so you can improve your game. Even if your game looks basic as all hell, you can work to improve it even further. There's no shame in going in Early Access, because one major purpose of it is to take in feedback and improve upon your game.
These are the kind of feedback you'll need to further let your game get exposure if it's positive, and if negative let you strive to improve it as much as possible.

4- The thing that you need to get into your skull is that you are now putting out your (dream) game in a market that is SATURATED with other small dev's (dream) games. Even if your game is observed, there's no guarantee it'll be bought instantly or in the long run by your average steam user; Games can be removed from Wishlists, if someone finds a game similar if not better to yours, what reason would they need for your game if they get their fix from that alternative?
also - agreed :)
 

Ascheroth

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Yeah, but are you guys seriously going to run and buy these games 1 year later?
Personally, I take these 1 year delays in launching in other platforms as if they're saying "We're giving you the honour of allowing you to give us money 1 year later", as if they're doing me a favour, so they can bite it. :grinning-face-with-smiling-eyes:

To many other developers to support, instead of teams that pull these shitty moves.
Doubtful, at least not right then. As the saying goes "I've already waited for a year, might as well wait some more until it's cheaper or in a bundle".
It's funnily enough the exact same situation we had with late ports of Japanese games. And now more and more of them are releasing games day-and-date on PC now, precisely because they've realized they're making more money by releasing a game on as many platforms as possible at the same because of the concentrated marketing and hype, etc.
Those Epic moneyhats are effectively similar to late ports, though the barrier for customers is admittedly less.
Guess indie devs will have to learn this lesson next.
 

Ascheroth

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That final boss as Yunica on Nightmare (in Ys Origin) was, well, a Nightmare. Here's hoping the other two are easier!
Yunica on Nightmare is without a doubt the most difficult route in the game.
The mantis boss nearly drove me insane because her DPS just isn't high enough to kill it before it heals and was close to giving up until I learned its healing gets less and less effective every time.
I've made a video of my successful run:

Some really stupid mistakes in the beginning, but it turned out alright :)
 
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Yeah, but are you guys seriously going to run and buy these games 1 year later?
Personally, I take these 1 year delays in launching in other platforms as if they're saying "We're giving you the honour of allowing you to give us money 1 year later", as if they're doing me a favour, so they can bite it. :grinning-face-with-smiling-eyes:

To many other developers to support, instead of teams that pull these shitty moves.
While I will admit that none of those games were games I was interested in buying at launch (some might have picked my interest enough to consider a purchase in the future), I don't know what will happen in a year I might have forgotten that they existed or who knows how many interesting games will have come by then.

And as I said before, since they are not interested in discounts (and it doesn't look like I would be able to buy the few games that I buy at launch with nice discounts thanks to 3rd party sites) I'm not interested in getting them either.
 

suiko

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Yeah, but are you guys seriously going to run and buy these games 1 year later?
Personally, I take these 1 year delays in launching in other platforms as if they're saying "We're giving you the honour of allowing you to give us money 1 year later", as if they're doing me a favour, so they can bite it. :grinning-face-with-smiling-eyes:

To many other developers to support, instead of teams that pull these shitty moves.
yeah, I expect them to be a lot cheeper year later, if not, I'll wait more, but if it's a game I really want, I'll buy it sooner or later.
 
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lashman

lashman

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yeah, I expect them to be a lot cheeper year later, if not, I'll wait more, but if it's a game I really want, I'll buy it sooner or later.
yeah, same ... i'm definitely not going to buy anything on egs ... but if they come to steam - i might grab them eventually ... if they're cheap enough
 

Theswweet

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Yunica on Nightmare is without a doubt the most difficult route in the game.
The mantis boss nearly drove me insane because her DPS just isn't high enough to kill it before it heals and was close to giving up until I learned its healing gets less and less effective every time.
I've made a video of my successful run:

Some really stupid mistakes in the beginning, but it turned out alright :)
Man the biggest pain with Hugo so far is managing his magic while also moving and attacking. I need to bind my magic to RT or something.

Edit: Actually, in that video... why didn't you just Bolt Crash near him to attack? Makes the whole fight much less of a pain, and you can get DPS in more often. Hell, as long as you're cautious you can deal damage when he's got his lances out, too.
 
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Alexandros

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imagine if they get Paradox as well ...
I imagine that Epic is hoping that these initial reactions will blow over and people will just get used to the new status quo. So far the announcement of each new moneyhat has provided more fuel to the fire. I see anger building up and people that used to be ok with Epic at first becoming annoyed by their aggressive anti-consumer moves. Landing a major deal right now, especially after the Division 2 and Phoenix Point shenanigans, is sure to cause massive backlash.

So I say, bring it on. A while ago I posted on the most anticipated games of 2019 thread that the only game I am really looking forward to was Phoenix Point, so for me that deal was really bad. I immediately applied for refund because preserving the identity of the platform is way more important than any game.
 
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lashman

lashman

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I see anger building up and people that used to be ok with Epic at first becoming annoyed by their aggressive anti-consumer moves.
we can only hope

preserving the identity of the platform is way more important than any game
agreed ... it's not always about money or getting to play games i really wanted to play immediately no matter what
 
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xist

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How much noise is the Phoenix Point deal going to make though? As far as I can see there were around 10,000 backers,...realistically how many do you think will ask for a refund? And how much awareness was there in the wider audience? It'll take the right straw to break the camel's back, and I don't think we've got there yet...(or maybe that should be reverse buckaroo.)
 
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lashman

lashman

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How much noise is the Phoenix Point deal going to make though? As far as I can see there were around 10,000 backers,...realistically how many do you think will ask for a refund? And how much awareness was there in the wider audience? It'll take the right straw to break the camel's back, and I don't think we've got there yet...(or maybe that should be reverse buckaroo.)
no, of course not .... PP is a relatively small game .... and it's not like XCOM is setting charts on fire either (and that one is the more AAA game anyway)

they're niche games ... it would've never sold gangbusters, obviously

the thing is, though - with that move they pissed off A LOT of people who WOULD have bought it (who haven't already backed it, that is)

and it's not like just by the fact of it being on egs fortnite people will suddenly buy 5 million copies of PP ... it would've been a niche game on steam (just like XCOM) ... and it will be a MUCH more niche game on egs (with the added "benefit" of pissing off and screwing over 10,000+ of their biggest fans)
 
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Gevin

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I thought getting some sleep would make me less upset about phoenix point, but turns out it did the opposite.

Between this and project phoenix, the term phoenix shall ring an alarm inside me in the foreseeable future.

At least halo on steam can ease the pain, even if they start the roll out with Reach, the most boring one of the games, first.



I wasn't aware it's supposed to reference the best anime, in that case you can keep it.


They said Evangelion, not Madoka :thinking-face:
 
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Alexandros

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How much noise is the Phoenix Point deal going to make though? As far as I can see there were around 10,000 backers,...realistically how many do you think will ask for a refund? And how much awareness was there in the wider audience? It'll take the right straw to break the camel's back, and I don't think we've got there yet...(or maybe that should be reverse buckaroo.)
Really hard to say. If it was a mass-market game I'd say the percentage would be very small but for a niche game that was crowdfunded... I don't know, I think that most of the people who go through the process of crowdfunding a niche game are probably part of the core gamer demographic and they're likely to follow current events. In any case, we do know that the initial wave of refund requests was big enough to force them to backtrack on not offering Steam and GOG keys once the exclusivity period is over. If it was only a small minority of people refunding Snapshot would have no reason to change their policy that quickly.
 

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How much noise is the Phoenix Point deal going to make though? As far as I can see there were around 10,000 backers,...realistically how many do you think will ask for a refund? And how much awareness was there in the wider audience? It'll take the right straw to break the camel's back, and I don't think we've got there yet...(or maybe that should be reverse buckaroo.)
I will ask for a refund myself, and reading comments on Fig and elsewhere, I see many others saying they already done so, or will be doing so.
But, someone from the team already said on Reddit that, even if they refund everyone, they would still be "on the black" after their deal with Epic, so they aren't too worried about this.

Regarding the deal, Epic is clearly banking on that saying that "every publicity is good publicity". When they announced their first exclusives, people kept saying "at least it doesn't apply to games already up to pre-order elsewhere". Then, they did that whole thing with Metro Exodus, to show that yes, we can take a game from another platform 2 weeks before release. People thought "at least, games that were crowdfunded, and that Steam and GOG keys were promised, are safe from this". Well, this was clearly done to prove that, no, we can also take these games. I remind you that the developer of Phoenix Point isn't just not providing a Steam key, they are also not providing either a GOG copy, or even a download (like they currently have with their betas, which are using their own client). No, you either get it on Epic, or you won't get it for a year.

You know what: I really don't feel the need, at all, to support developers who pull crap like this. Not even Julian Gollop, a developer whose works I have been following for 30+ years.
I know some people aren't bothered by these moves and practices, but I am. Some get upset, but will simply buy the games anyway when they launch on Steam. Or they will buy them on other platforms, like consoles. I certainly won't. I can live without a videogame, no matter what game it is. I prefer to miss out on games I was looking forward to for years, than to support a company that essentially thinks they can pull whatever move they want, and "bully" me into using their platform, and I'll simply go along. My principles are still worth more than any videogame to me.

This was the list I posted of the games I was most looking forward to this year (the link that doesn't work any more was for the Steam page of The Division 2):

As you can see, many of these games are now EGS exclusives, but despite that, I'm honestly determined not to give them (both Epic, and developers) any cent, not this year, not next year.
Before Phoenix Point, I already thought about the possibility of both Shenmue 3, and Bloodstained, to turn EGS exclusives. And, despite being crazy about both the Shenmue series, and the Castlevania series, and dropping a few hundred $ on each of these campaigns, I made the decision that not even those games will make me change my principles.

Saying this, by now I'm pretty immune to whatever they may try, it won't change my mind about not giving them a single cent, nor the developers who are cutting these deals.
 

xist

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Saying this, by now I'm pretty immune to whatever they may try, it won't change my mind about not giving them a single cent, nor the developers who are cutting these deals.
I'm in total agreement with the points you raise (even have fond memories of Laser Squad), but it's going to be the wider response over the next year that determines the success of Epic's deal making (and of course their next exclusives). And I fear that whilst there's a dedicated group of people who will vote with their wallets, for many and especially for the bigger or the most anticipated titles, most will crack and just play the games they've been looking forwards to. The average gamer who just wants to enjoy a game after work isn't going to consider the impact on the market in x months or years, but will probably have a couple of launchers already and consider another one not really a big deal. For my mind, It's too early too tell whether the dissatisfaction is a vocal minority or a sign of a growing discord...Epic may have buckets and buckets of money but at some point it doesn't make good business sense to keep sinking money into a strategy that isn't working, Perhaps we'll see subtle changes in their approach in future if the EGS doesn't pull in the crowds they foresee....the problem for me is that perhaps as someone who doesn't play Fortnite or need every new release, I've been trained too well and I just don't see the point. It's not even that I'm anti Epic...I installed their launcher for the free Shadow Complex they offered a couple of years ago, and am happy to grab their free games, but the majority of my library is on Steam and it's just easier on my ageing neurons to stick with that. Admittedly I'm probably not their target demographic but perhaps the amount of free games won't convert into custom.
 

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I'm in total agreement with the points you raise (even have fond memories of Laser Squad), but it's going to be the wider response over the next year that determines the success of Epic's deal making (and of course their next exclusives). And I fear that whilst there's a dedicated group of people who will vote with their wallets, for many and especially for the bigger or the most anticipated titles, most will crack and just play the games they've been looking forwards to. The average gamer who just wants to enjoy a game after work isn't going to consider the impact on the market in x months or years, but will probably have a couple of launchers already and consider another one not really a big deal. For my mind, It's too early too tell whether the dissatisfaction is a vocal minority or a sign of a growing discord...Epic may have buckets and buckets of money but at some point it doesn't make good business sense to keep sinking money into a strategy that isn't working, Perhaps we'll see subtle changes in their approach in future if the EGS doesn't pull in the crowds they foresee....the problem for me is that perhaps as someone who doesn't play Fortnite or need every new release, I've been trained too well and I just don't see the point. It's not even that I'm anti Epic...I installed their launcher for the free Shadow Complex they offered a couple of years ago, and am happy to grab their free games, but the majority of my library is on Steam and it's just easier on my ageing neurons to stick with that. Admittedly I'm probably not their target demographic but perhaps the amount of free games won't convert into custom.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not under the impression my "boycott" will change anything.
I have no doubt most people will cave in. Many already did. I already saw this happen, many of the people complaining about Epic are now redeeming their free games, playing the Satisfactory beta, or already purchased, or will purchase, any of these exclusives. Which is fine.
I was just speaking for myself. I know ultimately it won't change much, but at least I'm good with my own conscience. :giggle:

And very soon, when stores like Voidu, or Green Man Gaming, or Gamersgate, or Gamesplanet, start to struggle or close, or even stores like GOG or Humble, at least I can have a clear conscience that I didn't contribute to this mess.
 
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「Echo」

Reaper on Station。
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Mt. Whatever
I liked Madoka well enough, until the movie trilogy almost rekt me for life. The ending is so sad, too sad even, and goes against everything Madoka wished for completely ruining her sacrifice. (The third movie is like a sorta sequel/alt-ending) It made me rage. It made me depressed. I stopped watching anime for months after that. o_O

In the end though, it'll always be Eva at the top of my list. Especially EoE which I consider to be the greatest animated anything ever. Still holding out hope for Rebuild 4.44 though, maybe the craziness of that finale can top EoE.

Ahem. Uh, Anyway. :whistle:
===============

Yeah, but are you guys seriously going to run and buy these games 1 year later?
Personally, I take these 1 year delays in launching in other platforms as if they're saying "We're giving you the honour of allowing you to give us money 1 year later", as if they're doing me a favour, so they can bite it. :grinning-face-with-smiling-eyes:

To many other developers to support, instead of teams that pull these shitty moves.
Nah. I'm not in a rush to buy any of the EGS exclusives myself. I'm already on record as saying that I won't be buying Metro Exodus until at least Winter Sale 2020 or later. That's how I plan to treat these titles. I'll just pretend the release date got extended by a year and only pick them up on sale.

Maybe that's a bit vengeful to some, but eh, I kinda consider it the compromise between letting devs know "hey that's not cool" while also not depriving myself of things I want. (Though tbh, so far the only exclusive I really care about is Metro and Afterparty.)
 

Gevin

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I liked Madoka well enough, until the movie trilogy almost rekt me for life. The ending is so sad, too sad even, and goes against everything Madoka wished for completely ruining her sacrifice. (The third movie is like a sorta sequel/alt-ending) It made me rage. It made me depressed. I stopped watching anime for months after that. o_O

In the end though, it'll always be Eva at the top of my list. Especially EoE which I consider to be the greatest animated anything ever. Still holding out hope for Rebuild 4.44 though, maybe the craziness of that finale can top EoE.

Ahem. Uh, Anyway. :whistle:
I loved Madoka by itself and liked Rebellion (not as much but still very good). I agree the ending is pretty heartbreaking, that's why it's really divisive.

Homura did nothing wrong :cat-heart-blob:
 

derExperte

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Director of Publishing Strategy for Epic Games Store agrees that ”gamers are unpleasant aggressive assholes with hysteric requirements who should fuck off”.

No idea if this is legit or some sort of midsunderstanding. Edit: Sergey liked the quoted tweet, didn't quite get that at first. And he now removed the like. Too late, I say. Also not too surprising, fits perfectly.

Now you can say a lot of bad things about Microsoft and in the end they only want our money too but just compare how Phil Spencer communicates and behaves himself in public with the two goons Tim and Sergey. They care so little about us that they don't even bother to hide their disdain, we're cattle to them.
 
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In other news, thanks to Voidu's sweet 25% off coupon, I'm now a proud owner of Truberbrook. (y)



Yes, believe it or not, there are still awesome games being released on Steam or GOG every single day. ;)
 

Echoes

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I wouldn't be surprised at all if the multi-games deal with a "major" publisher is with Gearbox.
They know Borderlands 3 will be a tough sell, given how similar the 3 previous games are, so they prefer to take the safest road to get money. It's the same mindset with some indie developers, given the option they go for the money even if that damages them in medium and long run.

Personally after playing the 2 first games I don't have any motivation to try the new Borderlands.
 
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