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Ascheroth

Chilling in the Megastructure
Nov 12, 2018
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This was a pretty good video. I knew about some of the stuff he talks about but didn't know just how scummy destiny has gotten.

It's mind boggling how this game still has any success when so many other live service games do just about everything better. But then I have interactions with people who could be called destiny fans and they refuse to listen or acknowledge any of these points and keep defending the game and bungie. It really comes off as a cry for help at this point.

Hell the era thread about this had someone call destiny the best cost to content value ratio in the industry. Buddy if you think 4 hour $50 expansions, paid content that gets removed permanently, and $12 seasons that have next to no content and rely on grinding is the best value your head is going to explode if you ever play Genshin and see them drop a 50-100 hour whole-ass continent to explore entirely for free.
It's an interesting discussion. I haven't played Destiny since trying to enter it as a new player seems like a monumental clusterfuck, but let's say we look at what you get for 100$ in each game.
For 100$ in Destiny 2 you get the expansion + Annual Pass with a bunch of narrative stuff and grindable things for many hours. (Again, I can't judge quality or actual amount myself, but I'm assuming the PoV of someone who does like this stuff)
For 100$ in Genshin you get fucking nothing.
But where this comparison starts to strain is that the stuff you're paying 100$ for in Destiny, is just included as the baseline for free in Genshin. So sure, I guess technically Destiny gives you more "value per $" compared to the "value per $" for say Genshin purchases which are objectively abysmal, but you get so much more "value for 0$" that the comparison just ....really doesn't work.

The Destiny model is definitely more focused on extracting money from all existing players and in exchanges sacrifices potential playerbase growth though. (And them seemingly making things more expensive and stuff it does look to me like they're doubling down on that).
While the Genshin model is more focused on casting a much much much bigger net and monetizing only some of the caught players (and those to varying degrees).
 
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Line

meh
Dec 21, 2018
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It's an interesting discussion. I haven't played Destiny since trying to enter it as a new player seems like a monumental clusterfuck, but let's say we look at what you get for 100$ in each game.
For 100$ in Destiny 2 you get the expansion + Annual Pass with a bunch of narrative stuff and grindable things for many hours. (Again, I can't judge quality or actual amount myself, but I'm assuming the PoV of someone who does like this stuff)
For 100$ in Genshin you get fucking nothing.
But where this comparison starts to strain is that the stuff you're paying 100$ for in Destiny, is just included as the baseline for free in Genshin. So sure, I guess technically Destiny gives you more "value per $" compared to the "value per $" for say Genshin purchases which are objectively abysmal, but you get so much more "value for 0$" that the comparison just ....really doesn't work.

The Destiny model is definitely more focused on extracting money from all existing players and in exchanges sacrifices potential playerbase growth though. (And them seemingly making things more expensive and stuff it does look to me like they're doubling down on that).
While the Genshin model is more focused on casting a much much much bigger net and monetizing only some of the caught players (and those to varying degrees).
It's largely based on the model they follow, Destiny being very much a(n older) WoW clone in FPS form.
With endless progression comes meaningless, abandoned content, Destiny going even further with having literally deleted lots of content from the game (that people paid for!).
And sadly, that's the ultimate goal of all those fake progression games where the numbers don't matter one bit but will hook players on the hamster wheel, keep them playing for the numbers rather than the content, and we don't lack examples of games that are just "grind dungeon/mission/etc every day for months for the +1 item lvl", Destiny just adds an alternate version of the mandatory sub rather than a simple fee.

Without even jumping into something different like Genshin, Warframe is pretty far from the model followed by Destiny - despite sharing a lot of old content modes, since it's not an endless grind forward, they have a lot more that is relevant.
And it also doesn't require a "sub" because it doesn't really need to, like pretty much everything under the sun nowadays.

The sunk cost fallacy is very, very powerful, and the more people pay every month/year, the more they are likely to stick to their one game. Which lets the game nickel and dime them even more every time, which is fascinating to see in how bad it's getting in Destiny...
 
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ezodagrom

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Talking about games monetization, Blue Protocol released last week in Japan, the gacha is so incredibly awful, even more so than usual gachas.

While the gachas for male costumes, female costumes and mounts are all separated, the chances of players getting the advertised items (costumes/mounts) are abysmal, 0.2% for each costume set (1.2% for any costume set), or 0.4% for each mount (1.2% for any mount).
Plus, other than the low rates, the gacha is also expensive, without counting limited time discounts, 11 pulls cost around 4000 yen or so?

And there's no pitty system other than being able to exchange gacha items for points and then use those points to trade for one of the gacha items, but seems like the exchange rates are so bad that a player would have to do multiple sets of 11 pulls anyway to be able to buy a costume set (though I don't know exactly what are the exchange rates).

While I haven't really followed Lost Ark, seems like Amazon did positive changes to the global version's monetization when compared to the original version? If so, I won't mind the Blue Protocol global delay if they make the monetization more tolerable, since the game does seem rather fun other than the greedy monetization.
 

dex3108

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Durante

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It's largely based on the model they follow, Destiny being very much a(n older) WoW clone in FPS form.
With endless progression comes meaningless, abandoned content, Destiny going even further with having literally deleted lots of content from the game (that people paid for!).
And sadly, that's the ultimate goal of all those fake progression games where the numbers don't matter one bit but will hook players on the hamster wheel, keep them playing for the numbers rather than the content, and we don't lack examples of games that are just "grind dungeon/mission/etc every day for months for the +1 item lvl", Destiny just adds an alternate version of the mandatory sub rather than a simple fee.

Without even jumping into something different like Genshin, Warframe is pretty far from the model followed by Destiny - despite sharing a lot of old content modes, since it's not an endless grind forward, they have a lot more that is relevant.
And it also doesn't require a "sub" because it doesn't really need to, like pretty much everything under the sun nowadays.

The sunk cost fallacy is very, very powerful, and the more people pay every month/year, the more they are likely to stick to their one game. Which lets the game nickel and dime them even more every time, which is fascinating to see in how bad it's getting in Destiny...
Is Genshin really that different from what you describe regarding Destiny? I never played the latter, but the incentive structure in Genshin was very much designed around "grind dungeon/mission/etc every day for months for the +1 item lvl", at least when you look at it from an abstract perspective.

That's ultimately why I stopped playing it (and refuse to start anything that even remotely smells of GaaS at this point). Even though the core gameplay was enjoyable and the exploration and main missions were fun, the game was too "good" at trying to make you feel like you are missing out on something if you don't follow the daily/weekly/monthly/seasonal content grind.
 

Line

meh
Dec 21, 2018
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Talking about games monetization, Blue Protocol released last week in Japan, the gacha is so incredibly awful, even more so than usual gachas.

While the gachas for male costumes, female costumes and mounts are all separated, the chances of players getting the advertised items (costumes/mounts) are abysmal, 0.2% for each costume set (1.2% for any costume set), or 0.4% for each mount (1.2% for any mount).
Plus, other than the low rates, the gacha is also expensive, without counting limited time discounts, 11 pulls cost around 4000 yen or so?

And there's no pitty system other than being able to exchange gacha items for points and then use those points to trade for one of the gacha items, but seems like the exchange rates are so bad that a player would have to do multiple sets of 11 pulls anyway to be able to buy a costume set (though I don't know exactly what are the exchange rates).

While I haven't really followed Lost Ark, seems like Amazon did positive changes to the global version's monetization when compared to the original version? If so, I won't mind the Blue Protocol global delay if they make the monetization more tolerable, since the game does seem rather fun other than the greedy monetization.
Damn, that sounds kinda bad, but I'm curious about the crafting, didn't really follow - is it the usual cash shop item to avoid breaking your gear in Blue Protocol?
The cosmetic gacha sounds bad enough, but it's the rest that worries me.

And yes, Lost Ark is way better in its western version. Which doesn't mean much, because the original is horrendously P2W, and here it's... still extremely P2W actually, but I guess you have to spend less and it's not as RNG based I suppose.
Horrible, horrible monetization nonetheless. Unlike New World from the same publisher.

Is Genshin really that different from what you describe regarding Destiny? I never played the latter, but the incentive structure in Genshin was very much designed around "grind dungeon/mission/etc every day for months for the +1 item lvl", at least when you look at it from an abstract perspective.

That's ultimately why I stopped playing it (and refuse to start anything that even remotely smells of GaaS at this point). Even though the core gameplay was enjoyable and the exploration and main missions were fun, the game was too "good" at trying to make you feel like you are missing out on something if you don't follow the daily/weekly/monthly/seasonal content grind.
Genshin is pretty much "gear free" in that three years in, there has never been any sort of power progression in that aspect, it's still 5 artifacts and a weapon on each character, the first are still lvl20max (and that can be reached in about two days of play - though you probably don't want to invest that much effort so early on), the latter still lvl90 - and all of them can be freely switched around on other characters.
In the same way, characters still go to lvl90 like they did day one.

The game really doesn't rely on item level or endless progression of that kind (though it will be very much be a thing during the main "adventure" as account level is important to unlock new activities and later quest content, though what it asks is to... well, play the content and explore)... however, it definitely dips its toes in Diablo-like progression of getting the perfect items with the perfect sub stats, which can literally take years, or forever really. Getting your first characters to their maximum is clearly laid out but takes quite a bit of time then it goes real fast for the others, getting the perfect gear pieces for that 0.2% crit damage instead of 14def on your fire damage gear set? That's the real endgame nightmare.

The daily systems and time limited events (and the forgettable battle pass) are 100% the GaaS FOMO though.
Not that you ever need them to get "stronger" even if is a shortcut early on, but that you need them to get the shiny new characters, and admittedly, that's a big part of the appeal for most. On the other hand, it's a rare case of a gacha that is not wrecked by powercreep, it's not because a character is new that it's better (quite the opposite for a lot of them since early balance was pretty whack and they never nerfed anything).

Around August they will release the new country of Fontaine based on France and England, it won't come with any new maximum level or more powerful gear but instead it will be more open world to explore and fight in (which should be accessible right away for any new player, though they won't be able to do the story there until they've done the rest), and over the course of the next year will add at least as much content.
It's like having a new The Witcher 3 every year, and all the expansions after that before the next completely free of charge or any monetization of any sort.

And also it's a super casual gacha that never forces PvP or competition, not even leaderboards, so it's a lot less stressful in a way, I suppose? But it desperately needs a way to replay old story events.
 
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TheTrain

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Is Genshin really that different from what you describe regarding Destiny? I never played the latter, but the incentive structure in Genshin was very much designed around "grind dungeon/mission/etc every day for months for the +1 item lvl", at least when you look at it from an abstract perspective.

That's ultimately why I stopped playing it (and refuse to start anything that even remotely smells of GaaS at this point). Even though the core gameplay was enjoyable and the exploration and main missions were fun, the game was too "good" at trying to make you feel like you are missing out on something if you don't follow the daily/weekly/monthly/seasonal content grind.
Thats basically every multiplayer game as of today. As a player who doesn't have hours to sink in a live service every day i feel cutted off from every multiplayer game i tried to play in the last 5 years. I understand that im a case limit as I travel a lot for work but, for example, from one work to another I saw like 2 different season of Battlefield that went away without me noticing anything. It was brutal, in 2 month i lost a ton of content that was already unavailable.
Halo Infinite Is the only thing that keeps maintaining a level of sanity, but only because you can always recover the old battlepass, but even then you have seasonal content that are time limited because reasons.
As an avid CoD, BF, StarCraft player back in the 2010 i can safely say that the actual state of multiplayer games Is a complete bullshit. Its not anymore about skill but only about how much time you are willing to sink to meet their deadline. (Sounds like...work, uh?)
 

DrShrapnel

Shuwatch!
Oct 14, 2021
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Got the wireless keyboard I’d wanted, from my wife for Father’s Day. Also cashed in my Microsoft Rewards and picked up a wireless mouse to go with it.

I’ll have to connect both to my Steam Deck this week, as that was my main reason for wanting Bluetooth capabilities in each.

I love new accessories, but wow - there’s an entire enthusiast/modding keyboard scene I didn’t know existed. I think there’s also a lot of mouse enthusiasts out there, with multiple mice. Prices are getting a bit silly though, for the big brand stuff.
 

Derrick01

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Oct 6, 2018
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Is Genshin really that different from what you describe regarding Destiny? I never played the latter, but the incentive structure in Genshin was very much designed around "grind dungeon/mission/etc every day for months for the +1 item lvl", at least when you look at it from an abstract perspective.

That's ultimately why I stopped playing it (and refuse to start anything that even remotely smells of GaaS at this point). Even though the core gameplay was enjoyable and the exploration and main missions were fun, the game was too "good" at trying to make you feel like you are missing out on something if you don't follow the daily/weekly/monthly/seasonal content grind.
Genshin really doesn't even have an end game which some don't like but to me it removes any urge to keep up with things. Like I have my couple parties of characters I geared out months/years ago and I just use them mostly. Since I'm not gearing anyone else I don't have to grind for artifacts for them or weapon upgrade materials. Since I don't grind most of my time in the game is spent doing content even if it's just doing that day's dailies which take not even 10 minutes usually. I have over 100 of those resin restoring items because I never churn through my daily resin let alone need to replenish it, because I'm not doing any of the activities that require resin (which are mostly things you'd need to grind to equip new characters).

The hook of genshin that rakes in the money is people who feel the need to have all the characters, or take one of their 5* characters and max out their constellations (basically pulling 6 copies of them to give new powerful talents) but none of that is necessary because the only hard content that can qualify as endgame content is the spiral abyss which a lot of players (myself included) don't even bother with anymore. It's just a basic challenge dungeon that resets with new rules every 2 weeks. It's honestly one of the most laid back GaaS games I've ever played but I've also never had the mentality that I NEED every character. If I burn through my gems and don't get someone, meh oh well.
 

Durante

I <3 Pixels
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I appreciate the explanations of Genshin, but IIRC I have 8 or so lvl 90 characters and 100% (yes, really) exploration in all the early areas, so I'm pretty familiar with how the game works ;)
I probably put 500+ hours into it in its first year, and a few 100 more later.

I'm not saying that you have to do daily/weekly/monthly/seasonal grind in order to progress in main story content -- that is clearly not true.
What I am saying is that the game, for me personally at least, is a bit too good at making me feel like I'm missing out on something if I don't participate in that grind while I'm playing.
And so I'd rather play something else which doesn't invoke that GaaS feeling of FOMO.

Thats basically every multiplayer game as of today. As a player who doesn't have hours to sink in a live service every day i feel cutted off from every multiplayer game i tried to play in the last 5 years. I understand that im a case limit as I travel a lot for work but, for example, from one work to another I saw like 2 different season of Battlefield that went away without me noticing anything. It was brutal, in 2 month i lost a ton of content that was already unavailable.
Halo Infinite Is the only thing that keeps maintaining a level of sanity, but only because you can always recover the old battlepass, but even then you have seasonal content that are time limited because reasons.
As an avid CoD, BF, StarCraft player back in the 2010 i can safely say that the actual state of multiplayer games Is a complete bullshit. Its not anymore about skill but only about how much time you are willing to sink to meet their deadline. (Sounds like...work, uh?)
I was never much into competitive multiplayer games (though I very much am into coop, but the situation there is actually really good today), so I only really started to be affected by GaaS when it started to creep into single-player (or coop) games. But yeah, I completely understand where you are coming from, I actively avoid any game that weaponizes FOMO.
 

Arc

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Sep 19, 2020
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Metaphor stream. Has English subtitles. It's an Atlus stream so keep your expectations low.
Stream is over. I was half watching it, but there not much in the way of news other than it will have a simultaneous worldwide release. They mostly discussed how they designed aspects of the game, art and music. Noteworthy things include some sort of recruitment mechanic that culminates in the election of a king and how Shinegori Soejima looked to retro fashion styles as inspirations for costumes to blend real world style with high fantasy. There was also talk about the story music, but I wasn't paying much attention.
 
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Arsene

On a break
Apr 17, 2019
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This was a pretty good video. I knew about some of the stuff he talks about but didn't know just how scummy destiny has gotten.

It's mind boggling how this game still has any success when so many other live service games do just about everything better. But then I have interactions with people who could be called destiny fans and they refuse to listen or acknowledge any of these points and keep defending the game and bungie. It really comes off as a cry for help at this point.

Hell the era thread about this had someone call destiny the best cost to content value ratio in the industry. Buddy if you think 4 hour $50 expansions, paid content that gets removed permanently, and $12 seasons that have next to no content and rely on grinding is the best value your head is going to explode if you ever play Genshin and see them drop a 50-100 hour whole-ass continent to explore entirely for free.
A lot of people who play Destiny usually just buy the deluxe editions of the expansions (me included lmao) so they don’t realize how bad the structure is if you’re not following the game or just buy the standard edition.

The deluxe edition gives you the expansion, all 4 battle passes and the dungeons, so you get everything for that year of Destiny. Except the event passes which even tho are just cosmetics fucking sucks and they shouldn’t exist and Fortnite is doing them too now like why

Bungie really needs to condense all the expansions into a single $40 purchase like every other MMO, include the dungeons in the base expansion (or at the very least include it in the fucking battle passes? Like seriously), and drop the event passes completely like fuck.
 

Line

meh
Dec 21, 2018
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I appreciate the explanations of Genshin, but IIRC I have 8 or so lvl 90 characters and 100% (yes, really) exploration in all the early areas, so I'm pretty familiar with how the game works ;)
I probably put 500+ hours into it in its first year, and a few 100 more later.

I'm not saying that you have to do daily/weekly/monthly/seasonal grind in order to progress in main story content -- that is clearly not true.
What I am saying is that the game, for me personally at least, is a bit too good at making me feel like I'm missing out on something if I don't participate in that grind while I'm playing.
And so I'd rather play something else which doesn't invoke that GaaS feeling of FOMO.
The GaaS system is not for everyone, certainly.
But that was not the point though, we were talking about the different models of live service - and how Genshin differs by being a game that "makes you feel like you're missing out" and not a game where... you are outright left behind in some other models, and not only in PvP but even just playing with friends is outright impossible because you're not up to par anymore without paying, cannot access the content, with Destiny's extra issue of actively deleting what you paid for in cash before.

In Genshin (and others), no, you are not chasing a +1 item level., even if you really want to play the endless events. While in others, either you do chase it, or you literally cannot play anymore.
Hence the difference we were talking about with Ascheroth .
 
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ezodagrom

JELLYBEE
Nov 2, 2018
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Damn, that sounds kinda bad, but I'm curious about the crafting, didn't really follow - is it the usual cash shop item to avoid breaking your gear in Blue Protocol?
The cosmetic gacha sounds bad enough, but it's the rest that worries me.
There's a bunch of booster type items in both gacha and battle pass. :/
  • There's the usual exp boosters, rare drop boosters and such;
  • There's tickets to add extra rewards at the end of a dungeon, including double exp from clearing. Seems like players receive 1 of these tickets for free per day? But there's additional ones from monetized elements;
  • When crafting weapons, they can have 1 to 4 slots that can give extra stats, seems like the number of slots available depends on the weapon itself? But there's also a chance of "great success" during the crafting that gives an additional slot. There's tickets to increase that chance of "great success";
  • The stats for these weapon slots have random values between 1 to 5 stars? And apparently can use tickets to reroll the values for these slots, and tickets to lock a slot during the rerolling;
  • The other type of equipment are the imajinn, a character has 2 slots for battle imajinn (extra active skills), and 5 slots for passive stats imajinn. While the majority of imajinn are obtained through in-game means, the free and premium battle pass also include an imajinn each.

There's probably more stuff, but this is what I could grasp from a video about monetized elements in the game.
Though, one positive thing about the battle pass, is that it includes discount tickets for the next season, and clearing the battle pass gives enough tickets to make the premium for the next season free (each season lasts around 2 months or so).
 

Cacher

Romantic Storm
Jun 3, 2020
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The rumors right now are a new 2D Mario and a remake of an SNES RPG (I've heard Chrono Trigger and Super Mario RPG). If you run Yuzu through Steam it's almost like there is a PC version. :smart-thinking-blob:
Yeah I saw the rumors. Imagine my hype if the Super Mario RPG one was real..... I might pass out due to excitement.

Elaborating my original post, I have been trying to limit my spending on hobbies lately. I have way too many things waiting for me to consume and that stressed me out (yeah what a first world problem).
 

yuraya

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May 4, 2019
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I'm happy to be proved wrong, but I think Nintendo is done releasing major titles on the Switch. They must be preparing for the launch of the next console.
As long as Switch 2 is backwards compatible I think they will support it for a long while. At least another 2 years imo. The install base is way too big to abandon. The performance for those games is gonna be very rough tho lol
 

Dragon1893

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Apr 17, 2019
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My xbox one controller is acting up when I'm using steam. When I'm not playing it interferes with the mouse and keyboard and when I'm playing the analogue sticks become unresponsive and start acting on their own. Can't figure out how to fix this.
 

Amzin

No one beats me 17 times in a row!
Dec 5, 2018
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It happened XD

No mention of performance improvements, but the crashing fix hopefully works for me. I can maybe play with settings (which I maybe arrogantly think you shouldn't have to do with a 4090....) to get the framerate to a stable 60 at least.
 
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dex3108

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Dec 20, 2018
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If we take a look at some of the most recent NVIDIA and AMD-sponsored releases, we would see that almost all NVIDIA-sponsored titles had DLSS and FSR support at or soon after launch. Every title except Battlefield 2024 had DLSS/FSR support added to it. The only reason Battlefield 2024 didn't have FSR 2 support was that the upscaling technology wasn't available at the time of the launch.

Looking at the other camp (AMD), out of the 13 or so sponsored AAA titles, only 3 titles received support for DLSS. This is something to be concerned about since these are major AMD-sponsored titles and game developers might have been asked to keep upscaling technology exclusivity to the Radeon camp since there's no reason to not have DLSS or XeSS support within these titles. Even in Intel's camp, the company has been very open in the integration of its own and competition tech in AAA titles.
 

Panda Pedinte

Best Sig Maker on the board!
Sep 20, 2018
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Todays batch of demos played.

Echoes of the Living

This is a love letter to old survival horrors games, specially Resident Evil 2 though I didn't manage to get far into the demo as I was getting too annoyed by the tank controls. It's not a bad game, but it's not for me.
Station to Station

It's a puzzle game about connecting different resources through train stations. It's chill and the voxel style is a plus for me.
En Garde

One of the games that I got interested after one of the non E3 conferences. I was curious how it could play, and it plays quite well. Don't expect, at least in the demo, huge open environments and non linear progress, the focus here is the combat and as I put previously I found it fun and fluid. Definitely a game that I'll keep an eye for the release.
Little Nemo and the Nightmare Fiends

You can tell that it is an early build though the character visuals are very similar to the source material, and the music was really good. Currently there are only two levels (you select them in the load screen) and a boss fight. I'm cruious to see where this one is going.

Another Space Opera

Another one with a good soundtrack, though I'm not in the mood for this type of game right now. A minor nitpick that may not bother or affect others, but I found some places to distinguish if it was a platform or not.
Skator Gator 3D

That was a nice surprise! It's part 3D platform and part on rails where you grind your skate through pipes. The controls were good and there are value in replaying the levels as you can try to find the secrets, beat the time and get all the collectibles.

Fortune's Run

Do you know how there are a lot of games that pay homage to older FPS? This is one of them, and it's so good. My issue so far is with the font, sometimes it's hard to read whats in the screen, but one of the devs said they are working on it. If you like old FPS, hard combat and fast movement give the demo a try.
Just to add a bit more about Fortune's Run, they have some influence from Deus EX, HL1 and even mention E.Y.E Divine Cybermancy on their site.

I liked the combat, a mix of melee and shooting and you can kick te enemies!

You need to use a computer terminal? Be ready to type the login and the password, as well inputting the commands. I think this was the most promising demo I played, and I can easily see it gaining some following as now many games try to aim for what Fortune's Run is aiming for.
 
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