Community MetaSteam | July 2023 - This one will turn you into a furry

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toxicitizen

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I'm also currently playing Zero for the first time (actually playing the story for myself, not debugging).

It feels particularly good IMHO to play a Trails game again that focuses on a smaller, tight-knit cast of characters.
Definitely. It recaptures the comfy vibes of the first Trails in the Sky game while also having an immediately engaging plot. I enjoyed Trails in the Sky a lot more on a replay. It's such a slow burn that I spent most of my first playthrough waiting for the plot to start. This really hasn't been a problem with Zero.


edit: while on the subject of Trails, I couldn't help myself and finally ordered these. They just came in a few mins ago. :steam_cleanseal:



Probably not gonna open them just yet for fear of spoilers. Also, can't help but laugh at the now retroactively incorrect translations for the Crossbell titles.
 
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Prodigy

Sleeper must awaken
Dec 9, 2018
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Pls be true pls be true ( For Baten Kaitos PC )
As a South African, it must be true. a few things from our board have leaked before. Seems to happen every 2 years or so.
 

Durante

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Oct 21, 2018
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Because they are "moaning" about a hypothetical, nothing that actually happened.
But where's the "moaning"?
I'm sorry, I know internet discourse culture is at an all-time low, but I feel like just considering a hypothetical shouldn't elicit such a confrontational response.

I still don't see anything at all wrong with what was posted by e.g. Josh Sawyer in that context. Hell, I could have posted it. So I would honestly like to understand how it can be that people read this and are offended.
 

STHX

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Baten Kaitos PC would surprise me since Nintendo seems to own or co-own the rights based on the copyright info in the trailer, but we'll see
I think this is a Project Zero/Fatal Frame situation where Nintendo does own part of the ip but the other owner, in this case bamco, can self publish on other platforms (maybe by paying ninty something? I have no idea about the details). Regardless my steam account will gladly welcome Monolith Soft with open arms

I still don't see anything at all wrong with what was posted by e.g. Josh Sawyer in that context. Hell, I could have posted it. So I would honestly like to understand how it can be that people read this and are offended.
It's even more funny because pc users (which let's be serious are going to be the vast majority of BG3 players) are probably the most open playerbase to "bad graphics" or "weird games" (look at Battlebit Remastered). Sawyer was super defensive, almost if he is worried players will hold him to a higher standard sinmce he has access to microsoft money

Also let's be serious, Owlcat has already shown how to make a gigantic succesful cRPG to everyone. Does Pillars' failure still sting that much?
 
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dex3108

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Dec 20, 2018
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Am i crazy or Respawn is really mocking us at this point. These are their patch notes for newest patch that came month after last one.

Patch 6.5 Details

Here are the fixes you can expect with this patch:
  • Fix for bounty icons remaining on screen.
  • Fix for holomap not opening correctly.


More on the way!

While this is a smaller patch to address some immediate issues, we still have a patch on the way in the near future. We will provide more information as soon as possible.

It took them a month to fix "immediate issues". At this point i believe that only interns work on patches for this game just like interns work on Steam mobile apps.
 

inky

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Apr 17, 2019
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My guess is that they are very slowly working on a bigger patch, but they are drip feeding whatever updates they are confident on basically as they come as a "see, we're still working on it, don't forget us!" tactic.

Or they just sold a ton and dgaf anymore. Probably that one.
 

Amzin

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Dec 5, 2018
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Am i crazy or Respawn is really mocking us at this point. These are their patch notes for newest patch that came month after last one.




It took them a month to fix "immediate issues". At this point i believe that only interns work on patches for this game just like interns work on Steam mobile apps.
Speaking of, I played another hour last night and just kept turning settings down until I could get an average between 50-60 fps. Ended up on mostly medium settings, with draw distance and shadows down below that. And it's STILL not stable - turning the camera drops it / stutters. There's a lot of texture pop in, etc.

The game is doing something seriously wrong.
 

Durante

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Oct 21, 2018
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Sawyer was super defensive
No he wasn't.

Seriously I feel like I'm in bizzaro world. All of you are attributing things to an innocuous observation that just aren't there.

Absolutely nothing about "Great thread. The conditions under which BG3 was made are atypical. This is in no way a slight against the game or the people working on it, who are clearly passionate and talented. Having the foundation set and the funding to build things on your own terms is invaluable." is "super defensive".
 

Kyougar

No reviews, no Buy
Nov 2, 2018
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But where's the "moaning"?
I'm sorry, I know internet discourse culture is at an all-time low, but I feel like just considering a hypothetical shouldn't elicit such a confrontational response.

I still don't see anything at all wrong with what was posted by e.g. Josh Sawyer in that context. Hell, I could have posted it. So I would honestly like to understand how it can be that people read this and are offended.
Why is there even a discussion about it? Where is the NEED to talk about it? It just is very confusing and looks defensive.
BG3 isn't even out yet and devs on Twitter call gamers out to not hold them to the standard of BG3 and Larian.

Did we miss a massive campaign of consumers shitting on any and all other RPGs?
Why are devs proactively calling out a hypothetical scenario that is VERY specific and you would have to dig very deep to even find anything of that hypothetical response from their own userbase.

You said you could have written what Sawyer wrote. But would you?
Let's say there is a porting/fixing studio that made a phenomenal job porting a KOEI TECMO title to PC that blows away anything that was previously ported to PC from KOEI TECMO.
Would you then write on Twitter or anywhere else that the fans of the next Trails game you work on shouldn't expect that kind of polish and coding magic?

(I mean, YOU and your company are the ones doing the godly magic on ports where others should strive for, but just as an example)
Isn't that unprofessional and looks like a defeatist attitude?

Especially when we, as PC gamers (and the whole industry) are currently in the situation, where a good game that is also technically competent and runs fine, is very rare.

The answer to that example should NOT be "Don't expect that from us!"
We have enough shitty ports, unfinished games, laden with microtransactions.
 
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Mor

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Baten Kaitos PC would surprise me since Nintendo seems to own or co-own the rights based on the copyright info in the trailer, but we'll see
Not really, I think this will be a similar situation as Fatal Frame and call the day.
 

Li Kao

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Jan 28, 2019
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The answer to that example should NOT be "Don't expect that from us!"
I wasn't. And I feel insulted by devs thinking its worth insisting upon. Stop looking at your customers like an army of brain dead morons. Get off your socials for a change.

Has every RPG in the last few years been looked down upon because they are not Witcher 3 ?
 

Kyougar

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I wasn't. And I feel insulted by devs thinking its worth insisting upon. Stop looking at your customers like an army of brain dead morons. Get off your socials for a change.

Has every RPG in the last few years been looked down upon because they are not Witcher 3 ?
Certainly not from the people buying those games. We were happy with every iteration of an RPG that was made or gotten resurrected.
Pathfinder Kingmaker
Wasteland 2 and 3
Pillars
D:OS2
etc.

Sure, those games had flaws, but no one who criticized those games did so because they wanted an experience like Witcher 3.
We were happy that the games were made AT ALL.
And that's why I don't understand the proactive discussion about a thing that never happened in the past.
 

Durante

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Why is there even a discussion about it?
Why should people police (or worse, get upset about) what developers are discussing online?
You complained about the stereotyping of "gamers", (and I'd even agree that this is frequently abused to silence legitimate criticism of publisher or developer decisions) but this kind of ludicrous overreaction to a really tame discussion doesn't help that case.

You said you could have written what Sawyer wrote. But would you?
Let's say there is a porting/fixing studio that made a phenomenal job porting a KOEI TECMO title to PC that blows away anything that was previously ported to PC from KOEI TECMO.
Would you then write on Twitter or anywhere else that the fans of the next Trails game you work on shouldn't expect that kind of polish and coding magic?
You and others, in response to this (again, incredibly tame and civil) twitter thread are acting like gamers are never dumb, ungrateful, or needlessly abrasive, or as if it is completely beyond the pale to consider that scenario. In my experience, if you have even just a few thousand people playing your game, then at least a few dozen will be raging assholes.

To answer your question, I've had people tell me that our ports suck because we didn't add pathtracing. Sure, those are clearly trolls, but it's the same basic scenario, and yes in that case I will absolutely write about the conditions and realities under which a product is being developed. And I would hope that people don't lose their shit because of that.

I wasn't. And I feel insulted by devs thinking its worth insisting upon. Stop looking at your customers like an army of brain dead morons. Get off your socials for a change.
Discussing something isn't "insisting upon" it, and it's certainly not an insult to you specifically. If you read it like that you need to consider your own advice.
 

NarohDethan

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Apr 6, 2019
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To answer your question, I've had people tell me that our ports suck because we didn't add pathtracing. Sure, those are clearly trolls, but it's the same basic scenario, and yes in that case I will absolutely write about the conditions and realities under which a product is being developed. And I would hope that people don't lose their shit because of that.
Ofc I don't speak for the other posters, but as someone who has worked in Customer Service, one negative interaction can totally ruin your day / week. I cannot fathom experiencing that in a scenario where people more or less have direct access to you (Steam forums, socials) 24/7
 

Li Kao

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Words have meaning, some things are not insults but can be insulting. Like the use of the term gamer like it’s some dirty word. I’m sorry if I’m not surprised by the fact that there may well be 1% of deranged people in every commercial endeavor. I’m, once again, surprised that it’s a reason to talk down to your entire player base.
And to address your last point, let me assure you that at the end of the day I will give zero fuck about this little drama. Enough to post here, sure. I guess I should go touch grass.

Oh, I read a little fast, we are ‘losing our shit’.
I’m done.
 

Le Pertti

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To be honest I’m just happy hearing that we might get one in a decade RPG and other devs trying to not take on that expectation is a good thing, they should feel that, that is how progress is made. Someone will at one point exceed that expectation and we all are better off because of that. I will personally use it as a benchmark if it really is that good, I will still enjoy other RPGs but I will not criticise it for not doing stuff that has been shown can be done. Unfair or not, it’s not on me as the public to care about, I enjoy and like what I enjoy and like.
 

Li Kao

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To be honest I’m just happy hearing that we might get one in a decade RPG and other devs trying to not take on that expectation is a good thing, they should feel that, that is how progress is made. Someone will at one point exceed that expectation and we all are better off because of that. I will personally use it as a benchmark if it really is that good, I will still enjoy other RPGs but I will not criticise it for not doing stuff that has been shown can be done. Unfair or not, it’s not on me as the public to care about, I enjoy and like what I enjoy and like.
See I’m not even sure I will hold it has a benchmark in any shape or form. BG 3 is BG 3. Will I hold a grudge against Rogue Trader because it doesn’t reach the same heights ?
By doing this I would play an incredibly small number of games.
 
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Durante

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I’m, once again, surprised that it’s a reason to talk down to your entire player base.
And I'm once again asking you to tell me where that is happening in this particular discussion, because I'm not seeing it.
 
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STHX

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Absolutely nothing about "Great thread. The conditions under which BG3 was made are atypical. This is in no way a slight against the game or the people working on it, who are clearly passionate and talented. Having the foundation set and the funding to build things on your own terms is invaluable." is "super defensive".
The problem is the bolded. The rest of the post is congratulating Larian I agree but everything starts from this thread where this was said
I want to gently, pre-emptively push back against players taking that excitement and using it to apply criticism or a "raised standard" to RPGs going forward
Who is doing this?
This is not a new baseline for RPGs--this is an anomaly. Trying to do the same thing in the same way, especially without the same advantages, could kill an entire GROUP of studios.
Who is asking this?
...but if you shout that "EVERY RPG SHOULD BE LIKE THIS GOING FORWARD, YOU HAVE NO EXCUSE--" You've not just missed the point, you've created the expectations and conditions to ensure your favorite creators may never be able to give you the thing you love ever again.
Who is setting these expecptations?

Again, why is this discussion even happening? no one expects these things from a smaller team. This is the part where I say they are super defensive
No one makes a bad review for a Neptunia or an Atelier because it's not dubbed in 10 languages and because it doesn't look like a AAAA budget game. If some player leaves a bad review it's because of the reused dungeons, or the repetitive gameplay. No one expects every game to be Elden Rings despite that game selling millions
 
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Le Pertti

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See I’m not even sure I will hold it has a benchmark in any shape or form. BG 3 is BG 3. Will I hold a grudge against Rogue Trader because it doesn’t reach the same heights ?
By doing this I would play an incredibly small number of games.
Seeing something as a benchmark doesn’t mean one can’t enjoy other things that might not reach it. I enjoy lots of things that lack in many areas but I still judge them towards others where comparison makes sense.
 

Durante

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The problem is the bolded. The rest of the post is congratulating Larian I agree but everything starts from this thread where this was said
So agreeing with a pretty non-confrontational and well-reasoned argument that starts with "I want to gently, pre-emptively push back against players taking that excitement and using it to apply criticism or a "raised standard" to RPGs going forward" is "super defensive"?
 

Li Kao

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And I'm once again asking you to tell me where that is happening in this particular discussion, because I'm not seeing it.
I unironically agree with your point. I reacted to the tweets negatively, still am, but I have since then broadened what I’m talking about. The tweets feel a little condescending to me, and stating the obvious, but that’s it.
 

Kyougar

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Why should people police (or worse, get upset about) what developers are discussing online?
You complained about the stereotyping of "gamers", (and I'd even agree that this is frequently abused to silence legitimate criticism of publisher or developer decisions) but this kind of ludicrous overreaction to a really tame discussion doesn't help that case.
Then who was this message for? It was on an open social media platform and it was directed at the consumer base of those devs who discussed this.
Is it really a ludicrous overreaction when devs proactively build a scenario in their head about a reaction that hasn't happened yet and where we have to dig really hard to find examples in the past?

It doesn't matter if the discussion was tame or civil, that's not the point. The point is, that the discussion is even happening.
We PC RPG players are not really known for our graphical or technical expectations as a whole.
We loved Pathfinder Kingmaker, D:OS, Wasteland, Trails in the Sky, Underrail, Pillars, Shadowrun, Age of Decadence, Agarest, etc. etc.
Eurojank and the survival of those devs who release those games is basically THE defining nature of the PC RPG "don't really give a fuck about insane expectations" crowd.
And suddenly devs see the need to call out proactively to not do the thing that we never did?

You and others, in response to this (again, incredibly tame and civil) twitter thread are acting like gamers are never dumb, ungrateful, or needlessly abrasive, or as if it is completely beyond the pale to consider that scenario. In my experience, if you have even just a few thousand people playing your game, then at least a few dozen will be raging assholes.
And implying that this reaction WILL happen isn't eyebrow-raising? They are not picking the raging assholes out of their userbase, they are talking generally.

To answer your question, I've had people tell me that our ports suck because we didn't add pathtracing. Sure, those are clearly trolls, but it's the same basic scenario, and yes in that case I will absolutely write about the conditions and realities under which a product is being developed. And I would hope that people don't lose their shit because of that.
Answering specific expectations (or trolls) is a different thing than telling the whole world that they shouldn't expect the same quality as your competitor, no? I think especially your customers (as in the companies you do the work for) would at least raise an eyebrow and ask you to not say something like this.
 

yuraya

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BG3 is likely to become Witcher 3 in the CRPG space. It will make all recent games in the genre feel obsolete and all not too distant releases feel like a letdown. It will probably be the case for the next 5-10 years. Witcher 3 held the throne for a good 7 years until Elden Ring came out and even still Elden Ring hits a different note with its design/combat. Most people would probably still agree that Witcher 3 is the best AAA open world rpg on the market today. Especially from a story telling and writing perspective.

As far as turn based games go there isn't much to challenge BG3 in the coming years outside of maybe Dragon Quest 12. But we don't even know if it will be turn based. But DQ12 imo does have a good shot because DQ11 is easily one of the best big budget AAA JRPGs in the last 10 years.

There are some smaller scale CRPGs in early access like Colony Ship but its a half priced early access game so I don't think many gamers will scrutinize it too hard when it doesn't match the ambition of BG3.

Starfield will be the game that offers more freedom and an overall larger scope than anything on the market but Bethesda games are kind of its own category with these things so I doubt people will be hard pressed to compare the two. Overall Starfield will kinda be the jack of all trades type game that will attract so many casuals I don't see there being much of a debate in what is better.

Dragon Age: Dreadwolf will probably be the most scrutinized and most compared to BG3 because of the BioWare pedigree. Everything from being fantasy with party mechanics to the character creator etc etc. Also the up close personal cinematic character conversations with dialogue style wheels and choices have been very influential throughout the industry since the Mass Effect days. They influenced a lot of games since including Witcher and BG3. And even all the other lite adventure RPGS like new AssCreed and Horizon games.

And BioWare games get shit on pretty hard too so I think that would be a candidate people really go after when it releases some time next year. But again it will feel like a very different game since it will have action and RTWP tactical elements. The first Divinity Original Sin dunked pretty hard on Inquisition in 2014 but Larian wasn't very mainstream like BioWare was so Inquisition kinda got lucky in the GOTY voting and other discourse.

Avowed could be a game people scrutinize but from what we saw of the game it looks like its gonna be a smaller Skyrim meets Outer Worlds. Sure some will be upset if its not some hardcore FPS CRPG but Obisidian usually makes up for what they lack with good writing. People play Obsidian games knowing what they want.

The combination of ambition, money and resources will make it difficult for anyone to make a hardcore CRPG like BG3 for a long while. It will most likely be Larian themselves who dethrone it with a new game in the future. But really its just BioWare that has to worry imo. Maybe the indie devs who make 30-40$ rpgs as well but as long as they don't make bad games and price them accordingly...I don't think they should be concerned about BG3 in any serious way. Even if BG3 is the greatest game ever made it will still not be something that is meant to be played forever. People will move on to other games and even if expectations are high it doesn't mean other RPGs won't be able to introduce their own unique traits.
 

ZKenir

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Witcher 3 did none of that for me tbh, it was alright, i needed something long back then but that was that.
Hilarously enough the game started getting more enjoyable once I reached the expansions, I really didn't care at all about finding Ciri and all that.
 

Durante

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I unironically agree with your point. I reacted to the tweets negatively, still am, but I have since then broadened what I’m talking about. The tweets feel a little condescending to me, and stating the obvious, but that’s it.
I can see why it would seem that way, especially in the current climate of some developers legitimately abusing customer goodwill or trying to excuse half-baked products despite having the backing of huge publishers.

But I just feel like this doesn't really apply to that particular thread which is ultimately just some devs discussing the realities of RPG development, and why BG3 is such an incredibly rare combination of all of good furtune, great management and excellent execution. And I don't think that deserves that level of blow-back.

Then who was this message for? It was on an open social media platform and it was directed at the consumer base of those devs who discussed this.
Is it really a ludicrous overreaction when devs proactively build a scenario in their head about a reaction that hasn't happened yet and where we have to dig really hard to find examples in the past?

It doesn't matter if the discussion was tame or civil, that's not the point. The point is, that the discussion is even happening.
We PC RPG players are not really known for our graphical or technical expectations as a whole.
We loved Pathfinder Kingmaker, D:OS, Wasteland, Trails in the Sky, Underrail, Pillars, Shadowrun, Age of Decadence, Agarest, etc. etc.
Eurojank and the survival of those devs who release those games is basically THE defining nature of the PC RPG "don't really give a fuck about insane expectations" crowd.
And suddenly devs see the need to call out proactively to not do the thing that we never did?
I just don't see this as a "call out", and I disagree with the idea that it being a tame and civil discussion doesn't matter.
To me, reading the whole thing, there's just no reason to see it in such a negative light, and I feel like those developers are being unreasonably caught in the crossfire of general discontent (which has many reasonable causes).
 

Li Kao

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I agree that Bioware feels like the most probable dev to look badly here. But they are not 40 people and far from their first miss.

Witcher 3 did none of that for me tbh, it was alright, i needed something long back then but that was that.
Hilarously enough the game started getting more enjoyable once I reached the expansions, I really didn't care at all about finding Ciri and all that.
Wait, you didn’t enjoy playing ‘Where’s Ciri ?’ For dozens of hours ? It was the modern equivalent of the princess is in another castle :grinning-face-with-smiling-eyes:
I have no horse in this race because as much of a technical or density improvement it is over W2, I vastly preferred the second Witcher.
 
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ZKenir

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No, I never cared about Ciri or any of Geralt's other relationships with the main characters tbh, I was curious to see where the story would go and I wanted to see some of Geralt weird reactions.
I hated both w1 and w2 for different reasons i have like 80 hours in w1 on steam and that's cause i kept restarting it because i hated the whole first chapter, i'd drop it and restart again.

I hated Triss with a passion since the first game and I would have gladly beheaded her given the chance (this has nothing to do with the topic at hand but I really hated her and can't talk about witcher games without screaming it from the rooftops)

I really liked heart of stone and the blood and wine expansion though.
Blood and wine was especially where I felt I was really on an adventure with Regis and I was actually investigating what was going on.
 
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Li Kao

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I was joking, the plot of W3 is a trash fire. Sorry, I genuinely feel bad at the idea someone would think I loved that part of the game.
 
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kio

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Guys, we're all excited to finally play BG3 in a couple of weeks but can we hold the hyperbole for a bit, at least until we have all played it and can assess it's true value? It feels kind of juvenile to assume it will be the best thing ever and no other game will be able to compare...

It's not a zero sum game.
Larian already gave us the fenomenal D:OS2 and yet, at the same time, we were also lucky to get things like Pathfinder, Tyranny, PoE or Disco Elysium. The existence of one does not erase the others so it's highly probable that, no matter how good BG3 ends up being, other good things will be relesead.
 

STHX

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So agreeing with a pretty non-confrontational and well-reasoned argument that starts with "I want to gently, pre-emptively push back against players taking that excitement and using it to apply criticism or a "raised standard" to RPGs going forward" is "super defensive"?
I mistakenly clicked POST REPLY instead of preview so let me go in a bigger detail about my issues with the thread in question

First of all: how can the "I want to gently, pre-emptively push back against players taking that excitement and using it to apply criticism or a "raised standard" to RPGs going forward" line not be seen in a defensive manner? Because he uses the word gently? Fine but even if the line wasn't defensive which "players" are we talking about? Who is raising the standard? Why are we even talking about the standard of a game that officially isn't even out yet? Yes I know dipshits exists everywhere but no one was even trying to argue about this issue until this thread was made

Again, who is arguing this? No one expected the Geneforge remake to be the next Planescape Torment, and no one has issues with Spiderweb software resuing graphics from 10 years ago. So why the need to talk about Larian size, BG3 dev time or the DnD license?

And again, what is even written here? Who is asking every dev to repeat what Larian did? Who is saying "the next Larian game must be bigger, bolder, and massive even if it's going to kill Larian". Hell why are we even talking about the next Larian game when BG3 isn't even out? Who are these players who insist everything must be the best of the bestest

And once more, again, who is shouting "you have no excuse"? When Hollow Knight came out it had an insane amount of content for a metroidvania, it felt never ending and of course some idiot surely left a bad review for games like Luna Nights or Blasphemous because "they don't have enough bosses" or "they don't have enough powerups" but the vast majority didn't care. Hell those games were wildly succesfull, so why should devs be worried about this "hypotetical". This entire thread feels like a repeat of the launch of Elden Ring and the whole "I guess players don't care about games having good UX" or the whole "Zanzibart... Forgive Me" and yes, I will die on the hill that one was about devs beying defensive about ER just about this thread is about the same thing. Phrases like "we're elephants on a cliffs" are defensive in nature. Worrying about a raised standard is being defensive. Talking about "megatechs" and "anomalies" is being defensive. And you know, if a bunch of gamers was out for blood attacking every game who doesn't fit their gamer criteria I would agree with the devs on this one, but those gamers aren't here and so who was this thread arguing against?


And most of all why am I even arguing about this if there are 30 degrees out of my window at 10PM. I didn't even mean to offend anyone so if I did I'm sorry
 

Amzin

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Don't wanna quote the whole giant thing but I think this is kind of how I feel about it - it's not that the argument the person is making is on-paper wrong. People SHOULDN'T judge every new game on every game released before, because that's insane.

My issue is I am online all the time, I read a ton of games discussion (here, sometimes other forums, reddit, Twitter, Steam reviews) and I have not a single time ever seen a player give something a negative review because it wasn't the same standard as the gold standard of a genre. If anything I've seen the opposite - I have so many metroidvanias in my library where I think people were TOO forgiving of glaring issues waving it away as "it's not Hollow Knight, but what is?". Even when I'm critiquing something it's not based on my experience with a single game, it's my experience with games over 30 years of evolution and improvements (and sometimes getting worse).

Maybe the OP did see this conversation somewhere and that prompted it but to me it reads as someone stirring a pot for the sake of it.

For what it's worth I do think there is a game that put a damper on the whole genre for me because it was so good (to me) - Outer Wilds. It's basically the perfect detective/mystery game to me and I think there are some games I haven't bought because I know it'll be a more traditional, linear thing and that's now less interesting. But the ones I do play I don't give negative reviews to, even Outer Wilds DLC couldn't keep the magic going for the whole thing and that's literally the same devs in the same game.
 

Durante

I <3 Pixels
Oct 21, 2018
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I'm sorry I still think you are being overzealous and oversensitive in how you are responding to and framing the content of that thread. Why is that developer not allowed to make some general (and reasonably accurate) remarks about development, budgets and so on without having some concrete incident that triggers those remarks?

I feel like this actively discourages any realistic discussion of industry matters in any sort of public forum, and that is a huge shame.
 

Alextended

Segata's Disciple
Jan 28, 2019
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I don't understand what's going on with BG III, going in semi-blind (just because I don't care to follow most games closely nowadays I guess, it's not like I am actively avoiding it or anything) means I'll have some unprecedented awe inspiring jaw dropping experience even if I've played Larian games and other RPGs before? I thought it's basically Divinity OS 3: We D&D & Dragon Age Now. Well, not "just" given those games were good and got way better. Will it make Disco Elysium alongside other genre favorites feel like shit because it's too amazing? Wouldn't it have made waves like that from the early access already if it really was something far beyond anything? What's the deal? Okay so the dev team is huge (but still not some 1000-man Ubisoft AAAA production or anything), so? People enjoyed awesome if smaller scope RPGs after playing whatever was the century's/generation's/decade's/year's pinnacle and will again after BG III. Plenty people still think the BG saga was the best trilogy ever (BG, II, TOB) and still enjoyed all kinds of RPGs that did things differently since then just fine.
 
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Amzin

No one beats me 17 times in a row!
Dec 5, 2018
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I'm sorry I still think you are being overzealous and oversensitive in how you are responding to and framing the content of that thread. Why is that developer not allowed to make some general (and reasonably accurate) remarks about development, budgets and so on without having some concrete incident that triggers those remarks?

I feel like this actively discourages any realistic discussion of industry matters in any sort of public forum, and that is a huge shame.
From my perspective, again, it is generalizing and making a comment / critique of swaths of people doing something I have never seen happen, in literal decades. It builds on the already existing and flawed players vs. devs dynamic that generates a ton of hate and hostility (mostly from players) under false pretenses.

Again it's not that the thing they said is wrong, it's just not a debate or topic I've ever seen any reason to have. It's been kind of implicit, and the way that whole thread reads makes it sounds like it's an inevitable x vs. y confrontational thing that's for sure going to happen and please don't.

We absolutely have to get away from that hostile dynamic of players blaming devs for things, but that also has to include devs communicating with players as if we're in the same hobby (which we are) and put the blame for ills solidly where it belongs: executives and capitalism (oversimplification but mostly not sarcastic). Anything that reinforces the dynamic of us vs. them even unintentionally seems flawed to me, and misguided.

It's not something if I saw it in the wild I would take up arms over, because I'd rather not increase confrontation in these dynamics, but I don't see what purpose it serves. If no one is doing the thing they are posting about, what is the discussion about? It's fine to have philosophical and hypothetical debates but that's not how this is written, it's specifically asking a ton of people to not do something that already doesn't seem to be done. Again, in a way that's fine, but don't frame it as a players vs. devs thing, for sure. I'm certainly not protesting their right to say it, if everyone else involved is interpreting it the way that is more innocuous, great (on Twitter I question that but some parts of Twitter are still alright-ish).

The OP Tweet itself is implying hostility, and while there is a lot of hostile gamers, this is a kind I just don't see. It's likely there will be plenty of hostility leveled at the BG3 team for this or that, even. I think discussing where that comes from and how to dispel it over time (like, culturally) IS a productive discussion, I think implying people are hostile about something and asking them not to be is not productive and possibly even detrimental (implied hostility is rarely taken well on the interwebs).

Speaking of discussion, let's say I'm 100% in the wrong here. There are loads and loads of people that get angry at games released for not matching up or surpassing existing, different games by different people. Is this Tweet helping to deflate that, is it a net neutral, or does it make the situation worse? Ultimately I'd lean towards worse or neutral, because it doesn't really bring any new perspective to light (IMO, although maybe parts of the conversation I didn't see are more illuminating). Outside of hate speech I'm not going to police what people say or how they express themselves, but I can only convey how I perceive it as someone who hasn't developed a video game (but I guess I have done light design and balancing for physical games and some mods for video ones) but has been in the hobby for so long.

I'm not attempting to convert you to seeing it my way, I'm not trying to attack the devs tweeting, I'm just conveying what it reads like to me, and what conversation I wish it was instead.
 

Hektor

Autobahnraser
Nov 1, 2018
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The argument about "raised standards" is very odd.

While BG3 is indeed made under a very fortunate set of circumstances that not all developers have access to, it is my right to have whatever standards i want to have. If BG3 makes me think that i don't want to play anything that's "less", then so i will and you either raise to that standard or lose me.
Of course you shouldn't harass developers and whatnot, but that should be a given either way and certainly can't be the point of the conversation?

Also, this worry is extremely weird to have for this genre in particular, F:NV, KOTOR2, Alpha protol, Bethesda games in general, most Non-Larian CRPG's of the last decade, fans of the genre are very far away from caring too much about polish or production values.
 
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Kal1m3r0

MetaMember
Jan 9, 2021
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If anything good would come from the discussion I hope major publishers will start focusing resources on things other than $$$ cinematic experiences.
Anyone thinks that Square Enix couldn't pull the JRPG equivalent of BG3? Or CDPR, that dropped the ball mid-development with CP2077 to chase the GTA like experience?
And I can extend this to other genres as well, but I do hope to see more projects where the big money goes to gameplay and content rather than pure shallow tech
 
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